Batman literally has no answer for Wonderwoman or Flash

[LifeIsILL]

1

We have a list of her powers....on the wiki.
But seriously I thought ass-pull powers were the very thing people were despising about batman.

So the idea that zues power gives her molecular control is actually on the very tier of her "shitting" on Ray Palmers power.

No she's not a highly level reality warper... but we can go see what wiki or dc says her powers are.

If Batman can destroy an entire multi-verse, having Diana reset her size is pretty much nothing in comparison.

And "shitting" on Ray Palmer lol. DC has been doing that for decades. If they actually respected his genius maybe they should have had him come up with a way to defeat a few of the evil Batmen characters huh

[Ascended]

Ascended. How do you stop Diana?

I know I just responded but instead of writing my research papers due tomorrow I thought about this instead and came up with a few things.

Assuming I have limitless "JLA Batman" resources I'd do this:

In the Winnick Outsiders, there was a torture device from Tamaran (Starfire's planet) said to be one of the most painful things in the galaxy, and Roy Harper turned it into a lie detector. I'll take that from whatever forgotten storeroom the League has it hidden in, and then I'm going to enhance it with Nth metal. Nth metal, as we know, not only responds to brain waves but also bypasses a lot of supernatural energy (which is how Thanagar defeated their Seven Devils so long ago) and can conduct a insane amount of power. Then I'll reprogram the device so that it stores and saves each punishment, but only releases all the accumulated pain when the subject is awake.

Then I drop two black mercies on Diana; one on her chest and one on her back. I hook her up to my torture device (which is small and portable, so no problems there). Now Diana is living in a dream world and being Diana, she's going to know on some subconscious level that it's all a lie, and the torture device will register everything as a lie, saving and storing the pain and punishment until Diana's body is awake again. Diana will break free from the first mercy eventually, and probably sooner than Clark did in For the Man Who Has Everything, but she's unlikely to immediately realize there's a second black mercy on her back, so once she pulls the first one off, she'll still be under the second's influence, still in the dream, and this time Diana will think she's already escaped so it'll take longer for her to realize something is wrong.

When she finally realizes she's still dreaming and gets the second black mercy off her, she'll wake up and the torture device will trigger. This is Diana and she's got that whole "truth" thing going, so on some level she'd recognize every thought, sight, sound, and experience as a lie. How long could two mercy's keep her unconscious? A couple hours? The torture device is supposed to be insanely painful from just one single lie; imagine how much would hit Diana at once if it stored up two hours where every single thing in Diana's head registers as a lie? And it'll hit her just as she thinks she's safe and is unprepared. If anything is going to put her down for a while, this will. Hell it just might even kill her.

[Midnight_v]

I know I just responded but instead of writing my research papers due tomorrow I thought about this instead and came up with a few things.

Assuming I have limitless "JLA Batman" resources I'd do this:

In the Winnick Outsiders, there was a torture device from Tamaran (Starfire's planet) said to be one of the most painful things in the galaxy, and Roy Harper turned it into a lie detector. I'll take that from whatever forgotten storeroom the League has it hidden in, and then I'm going to enhance it with Nth metal. Nth metal, as we know, not only responds to brain waves but also bypasses a lot of supernatural energy (which is how Thanagar defeated their Seven Devils so long ago) and can conduct a insane amount of power. Then I'll reprogram the device so that it stores and saves each punishment, but only releases all the accumulated pain when the subject is awake.

Then I drop two black mercies on Diana; one on her chest and one on her back. I hook her up to my torture device (which is small and portable, so no problems there). Now Diana is living in a dream world and being Diana, she's going to know on some subconscious level that it's all a lie, and the torture device will register everything as a lie, saving and storing the pain and punishment until Diana's body is awake again. Diana will break free from the first mercy eventually, and probably sooner than Clark did in For the Man Who Has Everything, but she's unlikely to immediately realize there's a second black mercy on her back, so once she pulls the first one off, she'll still be under the second's influence, still in the dream, and this time Diana will think she's already escaped so it'll take longer for her to realize something is wrong.

When she finally realizes she's still dreaming and gets the second black mercy off her, she'll wake up and the torture device will trigger. This is Diana and she's got that whole "truth" thing going, so on some level she'd recognize every thought, sight, sound, and experience as a lie. How long could two mercy's keep her unconscious? A couple hours? The torture device is supposed to be insanely painful from just one single lie; imagine how much would hit Diana at once if it stored up two hours where every single thing in Diana's head registers as a lie? And it'll hit her just as she thinks she's safe and is unprepared. If anything is going to put her down for a while, this will. Hell it just might even kill her.

Damn. I... jeez. . . that pretty brutal.

That being said. I was initially here to kinda answer "Here's how to deal with these characters" I really didn't mean to slap the "I HATE THE BATGOD!!!)@*#" hornets nest.

I don't think ANY of these characters is supposed to be true invincible and somebody who knows everything about you and has the desire to ruin/destroy you could do it if
1. you thought that was your friend and 2. They had unlimited resources to do it. and 3. They launch the attack at an unexpected moment.

Shrug. The trick with the bat is finding a plausible way that doesn't make it seem "TOO" handwavy. Something that makes sense for him to attain or organize, but the Op kinda spells out that there's a certain amount of failure on the writers part thus far.

[Alan2099]

Often these conversations about how Batman could beat such-and-such always seem to revolve around other superheroes letting Batman use their stuff or Batman pulling out a one-time item that you've never seen before and will never seen again.

I think it's cheating to say "Batman could borrow Superman's Phantom Zone projector and have it operated by the special Speed Force Powered Nth Metal robot he made using plans from the Metal Men." Those aren't Batman's toys to use. If you're saying Batman could use those to win, you're saying Batman can't win on his own.

[JackDaw]

Often these conversations about how Batman could beat such-and-such always seem to revolve around other superheroes letting Batman use their stuff or Batman pulling out a one-time item that you've never seen before and will never seen again.

I think it's cheating to say "Batman could borrow Superman's Phantom Zone projector and have it operated by the special Speed Force Powered Nth Metal robot he made using plans from the Metal Men." Those aren't Batman's toys to use. If you're saying Batman could use those to win, you're saying Batman can't win on his own.

Lol. So he’s got to deal with 2 gods with one hand tied behind his back?

There’s a load of mainstream continuity where he does call in help from friends and allies...what else are hundreds of Brave and Bold stories about?

Similarly there are loads of stories in mainstream continuity where he finds and uses all sorts of one-off artefacts.

Similarly it’s known he’s continually funding all sorts of sorts of high tech research...and by the nature of that there will be new stuff coming through.

So you’re sort of asking..find a way Batman can deal with two prime powers WITHOUT using a lot of his main known resources...it’s analogous to asking how Flash would deal with a main threat without any speed powers.

[Alan2099]

There’s a load of mainstream continuity where he does call in help from friends and allies...

That's not Batman beating somebody. That's Batman and _____ beating somebody. Often times it's just _______ beating somebody with a little help from Batman.

Similarly it’s known he’s continually funding all sorts of sorts of high tech research...and by the nature of that there will be new stuff coming through.

If it's established that he's working on something, that's fine. If you just reveal that he suddenly has it because he's rich and rich people have stuff, that's something else. It's like back in the Golden Age when Superheroes could suddenly make up new powers on the spot.

On top of that, "Batman is funding..." implies that this is something somebody else has come up with. Batman didn't develop the Anti-Wonder Woman spray, Chuck the Scientist developed it. Do we count ever person Nightwing or Batgirl beats up as a victory for Batman?

So you’re sort of asking..find a way Batman can deal with two prime powers WITHOUT using a lot of his main known resources

I'm saying that if you're going to argue BATMAN can beat somebody, then it needs to be with his own resources not somebody else's resources.

[Agent Z]

Maybe this is whole conversation is an argument that some characters are just better off in their own continuity.

[JackDaw]

That's not Batman beating somebody. That's Batman and _____ beating somebody. Often times it's just _______ beating somebody with a little help from Batman.


If it's established that he's working on something, that's fine. If you just reveal that he suddenly has it because he's rich and rich people have stuff, that's something else. It's like back in the Golden Age when Superheroes could suddenly make up new powers on the spot.

On top of that, "Batman is funding..." implies that this is something somebody else has come up with. Batman didn't develop the Anti-Wonder Woman spray, Chuck the Scientist developed it. Do we count ever person Nightwing or Batgirl beats up as a victory for Batman?


I'm saying that if you're going to argue BATMAN can beat somebody, then it needs to be with his own resources not somebody else's resources.

But I didn’t think point of this thread was whether Batman can “beat” some one...but whether he has an “answer”.

Clearly if Batman openly opposes any major super power he will likely lose. Any credible plan is likely to avoid trickery, striking from the shadows, use of allies, use of technology or artefacts he seldom uses, etc.

He might for example do a variant of how Ozymandias dealt with Dr Manhattan in Watchmen...persuade Wonderwoman that her presence outside Paradise Island was damaging humanity, just remove her from the game, without any physical fight.

Given the way he’s written in his Batgod persona...it’s much more reasonable to believe he’s acquired stuff like power rings, phantom zone projectors, etc, etc than assume that he only has Waynetech technology in his arsenal.

[Osiris-Rex]

Who could Batman realistically beat without some form of technology, whether made by him, Lucius Fox, or borrowed from someone else? Without technology all Batman is is someone exceptional at hand to hand combat.
So you either give him technology or have him stick to the likes of Penguin, Riddler, and Joker.

[Ascended]

Damn. I... jeez. . . that pretty brutal.

Ha! Thanks. I'm a twisted bastard I guess.

That being said. I was initially here to kinda answer "Here's how to deal with these characters" I really didn't mean to slap the "I HATE THE BATGOD!!!)@*#" hornets nest.

It's a conversation about if and how Bruce can take down people who can literally travel time and dimensions by jogging. This thread was never going to be anything more than a big argument. If you hadn't set it off (and I'm not sure you did) someone else would have.

I don't think ANY of these characters is supposed to be true invincible and somebody who knows everything about you and has the desire to ruin/destroy you could do it if
1. you thought that was your friend and 2. They had unlimited resources to do it. and 3. They launch the attack at an unexpected moment.

I agree. But I want the story well written and I want the other hero to at least get a good showing so their loss isn't a complete slap in the face. It's not asking for that much. But those things almost never happen with Batman fights. Bruce can win, but I demand a quality story and not a bunch of PIS that makes everyone else look like idiots just to prop up the guy who's #1 in the first place.

I mean, look at my plan above; Bruce has to not only get a specific piece of alien tech that was only used in one story over a decade ago, he has to get Nth metal (the rarest substance in the DCU) to bypass Diana's divine nature, reprogram that alien tech he has no experience with, and get two alien parasites that're only found on one random, distant planet (that's owned by Mongul, I believe).

That's a whole lot of BS to go through. Most writers don't want to (or can't) put that kind of effort into developing Bruce's strategy, so he gets some stupid ass handwave victory that makes zero sense, and it is almost always utterly insulting to everyone else. Like, I will never forgive Snyder for having Bruce defeat Clark by spitting on him. It's not Clark losing that pisses me off, it's the way it was done.

Shrug. The trick with the bat is finding a plausible way that doesn't make it seem "TOO" handwavy. Something that makes sense for him to attain or organize, but the Op kinda spells out that there's a certain amount of failure on the writers part thus far.

Well, as you've said, there's two Batmen. The JLA version and the Gotham version. In order for Batman to have any hope of a victory he needs to be on that JLA level. And he usually needs to be able to access stuff that is outside of his own mythos because Gotham Batman does not have those kinds of resources. And that unbalances things, because everyone else doesn't get to do that; Clark doesn't get to use a Green Lantern ring, Barry doesn't get Amazon armor, etc. Hell they don't even get to use everything in their mythos; Clark can't access the stuff in his Fortress, Barry can't use the treadmill, etc. So we tie one hand behind their backs while giving Batman access to everything that has ever been seen or mentioned in any DC comic ever. Of course it's going to piss people off; Bruce has a huge advantage right out of the gate. He gets limitless resources while everyone else gets whatever they walk out of their house with (wallet, phone, keys).

If Batman v. the League is a matter of "man v. god" then it's not the League filling that "god" position, it's Bruce. And he's supposed to be the "regular" human. There's a lot of narrative dissonance there.

[sifighter]

Maybe this is whole conversation is an argument that some characters are just better off in their own continuity.

It feels that way at times when it comes to conversations of what Bruce should realistically have in a fight. I said this before, Bruce himself is a man who can fight other men with guns and knives and bombs, but you bring in the other parts of the dc universe and it becomes can you accept that a man who fights more realistic enemies somehow use his money and connections to purchase more outlandish items like Kryptonite rings, yellow lantern rings, mother boxes, anti-lassos, and whatever that Lightning rod is to fight off flash.

I personally can because I enjoy those more outlandish parts that come with being in a shared universe, to see stuff of what I’m talking about look at Justice League and Batman Universe.

[achilles]

I really just want Batman to pull something labeled "Anti-Wonder Woman Spray" off his utility belt. I don't want to know how it works; it works because it's called that. If nothing else, I presume Wonder Woman will just die laughing at the attempt. That, or pity him and be nice enough to fake being overcome.

[sifighter]

I really just want Batman to pull something labeled "Anti-Wonder Woman Spray" off his utility belt. I don't want to know how it works; it works because it's called that. If nothing else, I presume Wonder Woman will just die laughing at the attempt. That, or pity him and be nice enough to fake being overcome.

I can accept that but I would prefer if it’s Bruce creating fake contingencies to fool villains post Tower of Babel.

Diana: “Anti-Wonder Woman spray?”
Bruce: smiles “You would be amazed what some villains can fall for”

[Dred]

Lol. So he’s got to deal with 2 gods with one hand tied behind his back?

The exact point here is that he doesn't. The entire point is that Batman does not need to **** on other heroes to make himself come out as superior to them on a yearly basis. The ancillary points is that when he does this it is always some absurd contrivance made up out of thin air that no other hero ever gets the benefit of. Only Batman gets these moments. I've never seen Flash take down the entire Justice League even though it wouldn't even be that hard to write. I've seen Batman school every member of the JL several times over, both as a team and individually.

[Nite-Wing]

Its funny how people often complain about Batman getting the push because other characters are written badly or not up to their standard but when Bruce uses his brain which is his best ability and asset to source technology and resources to fight superhumans its not "fair" because he isn't using his own tech

Frankly Hawkman is still a toxic mess of a character even before Bruce discovered how useful nth metal was
Does Bruce learning how to do something from ray palmer make me think Ray is cooler? No
Does Bruce learning some esoteric magic from zatanna for a one time use make her seem amazing? No

Not sure why people have a problem with that stuff
You want Batman to be a part of the DCU not be separate and exist in his own bubble