Favorite "evil Superman"

[Mistah K88]

When it comes to the character of Superman, there are a few themes that beat a dead horse...hard. Things like the "Death of Superman" we've seen ad nauseam to the point that we'd even watch Krypton explode again before having to sit and watch a Superman die who hasn't even lived. One of these annoying repeated tropes is the "evil Superman" theme (which is odd as there are evil Kryptonians out there, why people often have to go directly to Superman first before using someone like Zod baffles me), whether it's mind control, red Kryptonite, an alternate universe, or "one bad day" we've seen plenty of instances of rogue Superman. However surely one of these amused you in SOME way.

My favorite was actually from the cartoon Batman the Brave and the Bold, in which they used the trope to a hilarious effect in using some comic covers as scenes. Superman was a real di...fferent person.

What would be your favorite instance of "Superman goes bad"?

[Vordan]

Of the entire concept as a whole, this is the best because it’s the only one to own up to how utterly ****** everyone would be. Batman would get murdered first because Clark isn’t an idiot and isn’t going to underestimate Bruce. The world would quite literally never be the same again. Also Waid is a huge Superman fan, and while I don’t agree with everything he says about Superman, he has spent a lot of time thinking about how Superman works. Plutonian’s fall is tragic and it makes sense.

Now for the main guy himself going bad?


It’s not one bad day. It’s not because the Flash died, after all he held on to his morals for a while even after Flash died. It’s not because Lois died, she’s alive and well here. It’s not because he got “tricked” like an idiot into throwing his morals away. It’s because Superman’s morals have been slowly eroded by seeing Lex again and again get away with it all, to the point Lex becomes President. It’s all of that plus Lex pushing the world to the brink of nuclear Armageddon and then Lex taunting him by bringing up that Supes himself craves the public’s love and approval (one of Supes main flaws even for the main guy I would say) and letting him know he counts on Superman solving his mess and continuing on afterwards like always. It’s Superman finally having enough of the status quo and deciding he’s ok with becoming a monster if it means an end to the pointless war. He makes the choice coldly and logically instead of being portrayed as an emotionally manipulated moron like Injustice. Plus look at that suit. It’s freaking awesome, Injustice Superman’s suits are utter trash.

Plus it’s Lex who breaks him not Joker so I don’t have to suffer Jokerwank about how he’s so CUHRAZY and how Supes is just soooooo stupid and easily beaten (thank you Taylor for that), and Batman falls too instead of Batwank about how Mr. I’m going to torture people for information and build a spy satellite to keep the other heroes in line cares oh so much about people’s civil rights and is just flat out stronger than Supes morally and mentally. So yeah that’s a factor.

[manwhohaseverything]

Darkknight returns superman. He is the antagonist. Therefore the villain. Welcome to the darseid.

[Gaius]

When it comes to the character of Superman, there are a few themes that beat a dead horse...hard. Things like the "Death of Superman" we've seen ad nauseam to the point that we'd even watch Krypton explode again before having to sit and watch a Superman die who hasn't even lived. One of these annoying repeated tropes is the "evil Superman" theme (which is odd as there are evil Kryptonians out there, why people often have to go directly to Superman first before using someone like Zod baffles me), whether it's mind control, red Kryptonite, an alternate universe, or "one bad day" we've seen plenty of instances of rogue Superman. However surely one of these amused you in SOME way.

My favorite was actually from the cartoon Batman the Brave and the Bold, in which they used the trope to a hilarious effect in using some comic covers as scenes. Superman was a real di...fferent person.

What would be your favorite instance of "Superman goes bad"?

Agree with you on the Superman episode of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, it's also probably my favorite Superman vs. Batman fight in any media.

Aside from that, I would probably say Red Son or Kingdom Come. Mainly because you can see Superman still trying to do good and it's debatable if he's really evil or it's just from living in a different society (Red Son) or the changing times have made Superman more of an extremist in his morals (Kingdom Come). Done much better than being a Darth Vader wannabe like in Injustice.

Plus it’s Lex who breaks him not Joker so I don’t have to suffer Jokerwank about how he’s so CUHRAZY and how Supes is just soooooo stupid and easily beaten (thank you Taylor for that), and Batman falls too instead of Batwank about how Mr. I’m going to torture people for information and build a spy satellite to keep the other heroes in line cares oh so much about people’s civil rights and is just flat out stronger than Supes morally and mentally. So yeah that’s a factor.

Agreed, the Batman and friends (Joker, Harley Quinn, etc) worship while other characters get thrown under the bus to make them look cool that permeates Injustice is why I've come to loathe it so much.

[manduck37]

Well Vordan mentioned the two I was going to say right in the first post! So I agree with Vordan. Waid's approach of "Superman without the emotional maturity to do the job" is a truly terrifying character.

Lord Superman is just awesome, from the costume to the attitude. I love that his suit reflects his black and white view on the world. A Superman who's decided he's had enough and is going to step in directly is a pretty cool concept. He's just so much fun.

[Sacred Knight]

Probably pre-Crisis Earth 3 if anything just for the costume. Always reminded me of a vampire's cape with those pointed edges on the collar.

[Phoenixx9]

For me, it is Ultraman (Earth-3).

[DochaDocha]

I kind of like Justice Lord Superman, but I think it's still a little over-the-top. For all the reasons Vordan explains, Lord Superman is a better character than Injustice Superman, but I think at times in the two-parter episode they go too far dehumanizing Superman. The part where Lord Green Lantern and Hawkgirl bust a college rally, or the civilian makes a ruckus at a restaurant and gets hauled off to jail... I don't quite see how Luthor's corruption would go quite that far into making Superman against all forms of free speech and minor disorderly conduct. It's like they wanted to hammer home the point that the Lords were bad folks so they do everything that those who grow up in a free society would despise. Maybe it could happen, I dunno, but it felt laid on thick, like the writers thought Lord Superman wouldn't be villainous enough if he had a few redeeming traits. I didn't read the companion comics that came out a few years ago, so no comment on that.

Oh yeah, I should comment that even though Lord Batman got corrupted, League Batman talked sense into him and by the end there were six "bad" Lords and one "good" one (Batman). And I do know the comics picked up there and made a story that didn't interest me at all.

Now I do like compromised versions of characters who aren't all the way bad. Guys who do reckless things, are morally inconsistent, have good moments and bad ones. I guess Hernan Guerra comes close, but calling him "evil" I think is a stretch.

[Vordan]

Reason they do that is because if they make killing the bad guys look ok, why can’t the mainstream heroes start doing it? So the solution they’ve settled on is if the heroes start killing they’ll be even worse than the villains. The closest we’ve come to a Superman/Batman who kill routinely and aren’t evil is Gods and Monsters and those two still decide to tone down the slaughter in the end.

Red Son, Gods and Monsters, and maybe even Overman aren’t “evil” in the same way Justice Lord and Injustice Superman are. They’ve done evil things or been party to them and in the case of Overman it’s too late for redemption, but they don’t completely reject any notion of morality constraint their actions. Red Son Superman refuses Brainiac’s push to invade the USA. Overman is consumed by guilt over being party to the Nazi genocides. Lor-Zod doesn’t murder anyone who talks back to him and is shown to genuinely care about people. His character arc is rejecting the Zod and embracing the El shown at the end by him saying he’s going to try to stop killing. Justice Lord Superman and Injustice Superman meanwhile refuse to acknowledge any morality whatsoever beyond “I’ll do what I want, just try and stop me”, kill people for trying to stand up to them, and pretty clearly take a certain amount of delight in atrocities. They’re not sympathetic characters, anyone who thinks NRS intends for Injustice Superman to be sympathetic isn’t paying attention to how they write him (either that or they’re so incredibly terrible at writing they simply botch it every time which would also be perfectly understandable).

[Yoda]

Miracle Man count or is he Captain Marvel? I think he still kinda fits the Superman mold. It's a much less outright evil version but really I don't think they are supposed to be the good guys by the end. It starts off as kind of the basic Moore realistic superhero deconstruction, but it moves into him killing a kid for the greater good before really leaning into the fascist side of superheroes and taking over the world "for it's own good." I think some day when Gaimen finishes The Dark Age, it might come full circle, but who knows at this point.

[manwhohaseverything]

Red Son, Gods and Monsters- They’ve done evil thing or been part of them. Lor-Zod doesn’t murder anyone who talks back to him and is shown to genuinely care about people.

I haven't seen justice league gods and Monsters, in a while. What did lor do that can be considered evil? For me, he was another superman.Then again i don't have an estieemed view of superman's morality.

[Vordan]

I haven't seen justice league gods and Monsters, in a while. What did lor do that can be considered evil? For me, he was another superman.Then again i don't have an estieemed view of superman's morality.

I don’t consider him evil, but he HAS killed people “for the greater good” and repeatedly talks about struggling with the desire to take over the world. He talks about it at the start with Bekka mentioning how they do have a support base who want them to take over, and at the end talking about how people keep asking him if he wants to save the world or rule it and that “today it’s going to be hard to tell the difference”. Ultimately though he rejects becoming like his father Dru-Zod, and for that reason I consider him a still valid Superman.

Keep in mind: This version killed a kid. He had valid reasons for doing so, but it shows how his morality definitely skews darker than Kal-El Superman. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w0uvC6mjsb0

[DochaDocha]

Yeah, Hernan Guerra isn't evil, but he'll kill you if he thinks he has to. But he has enough humanity that even if he serves the greater good, he can still understand the loss.



It's really one of the better stories of superheroes who aren't so black and white, understand consequences, but ultimately make tough decisions. Most of the other stories about heroes killing either turn into complete moral decay of the heroes or some overwrought dramatic episode like when WW killed Max Lord.

[Ascended]

Never watched Gods and Monsters but I'm getting a bit of a Dragon Reborn vibe from this guy.

I could be down with that.

Anyway for me, my favorite "evil" Superman is probably Justice Lord Superman, but if it counts I actually prefer the main canon version from the Dominus era where Clark basically took over the world for a while. I feel like that was headed in the same direction the Justice Lords wanted to go in, but it wasn't so heavy handed and Clark didn't spiral completely out of control before.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don’t consider him evil, but he HAS killed people “for the greater good” and repeatedly talks about struggling with the desire to take over the world. He talks about it at the start with Bekka mentioning how they do have a support base who want them to take over, and at the end talking about how people keep asking him if he wants to save the world or rule it and that “today it’s going to be hard to tell the difference”. Ultimately though he rejects becoming like his father Dru-Zod, and for that reason I consider him a still valid Superman.

Keep in mind: This version killed a kid. He had valid reasons for doing so, but it shows how his morality definitely skews darker than Kal-El Superman. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w0uvC6mjsb0

Well, he has power that comes as part and parcel. The impulse to take over, i mean. Also, It doubles when you feel like you are morally right and liberty or freedom becomes a value that you give up.Regardless, he doesn't ever give in. It depends on your view point, I don't see it as dark. I just see it as something that's unfortunate. He either kills the child or the kid takes out everyone including many other babies. The child itself was suffering. It was basically mercy death. You might not agree with it, but sometimes death is compassion. Besides, i had the same talks with @frontier the other day. We have a superman who pretty much takes the gamble of "win all or loss all" with lives everytime, and not even acknowledge it.i view that as dark. This is pretty straight forward utilitarian choice. He choses the lives of many over one. He decides to bare the lose of one life as his cross to carry. His other killings cannot be judged without fully understanding context. If its not wanton murder, especially if its done to save lives. I don't particularly view it as reprehensible or evil. If that were the case pretty much every person is complicit in it in the world. Why? We have soldiers doing the same thing for protecting us. We can't blame the soldiers for it either. By the very definition, we become part of the conspiracy to murder, if their actions are made into murder. As we live in their protection, knowing full well that they kill to protect us. Is it bad? Yeah! But is it necessary? Maybe not, but the situation certainly demands it. We as a civilisation has created a world where killing is part and parcel of the course. I believe, it was in new Frontier movie. Hal jordan kills a person to survive. Is it bad? A life was lost, ofcourse it is. But, was he reprehensible in defending himself? I don't think so. Could he cope with it? Not really, it was hard.
Then again i might be rambling about things i have no clue about. So yeah! Pay no heed.