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  1. #27706
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    They are right about everyone being afraid. The city is even still recovering from the damage down when everything popped off last year; the lockdown from Covid I'm sure unfortunately slowed that recovery down. The one-two punch of the damage from the arson and riots, then economic impact of Covid costing so many jobs has also seen crime skyrocket ... Daunte Wright's murder already tipped the scales into unrest. But I have little doubt that the reason they were able to deploy the national guard so quickly for all of that is because they were already prepared for rioting over the Chauvin trial.

    But like I said before, everyone would not be on edge, and we would not already have the Guard deployed in our streets ... just hanging out in armored vehicles and full gear, all day, meanwhile the city shuts down in unofficial curfew every night, following the officially mandated curfew nights ... if there was any kind of faith Chauvin will not be acquitted. The prosecution made a strong case, and I was momentarily reassured to see police testifying against Chauvin. Unfortunately, if anything actually was decided beforehand, it's that cops can all too easily get away with literal murder, even when it is caught on camera.
    It sounds crazy where you are. Please, stay safe.

    Meanwhile, here in Philly, the supermarket I regularly shop at half a mile from my house put up the plywood on its windows. Can't say I'm surprised since my neighborhood got hit plenty hard by rioting and looting a year ago, I'm sure businesses from coast to coast will be going into board up mode as a hedge against a repeat performance should Chauvin be acquitted. The whole damn country will be nervous awaiting the verdict.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  2. #27707
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    I'm working out some general ideas for police reform and I'd like to share what I have so far. Feel free to comment or make suggestions. Once it is completed, I might do something with it. Publish it or send a copy to Senators or something like that.

    One of several key factors I am working towards is taking police out of situations where they really aren't needed, where alternative options are available.

    Police Reform Ideas - first draft

    • Police need a standardized training program with guidelines defined at the federal level.
    • Police need more training, better training. Especially in how to de-escalate situations and how to respond without the use of force, violence, or any other similar means.
    • Police equipment and weaponry should be standardized and limited to the minimum for what is needed at any one time. Military-style equipment or other weaponry in excess of what is needed to do their job should be disposed of.
    • An independent police review board should review all issues relating to police officer conduct, from the use of firearms and excessive use of force to violations of department policy to complaints by the public to possible violations of the law.
    • A Three Strike rule regarding reports of overuse of violence, complaints against them by the public, actions that go against police department rules, or other violations, should be applied to all police officers. Two strikes and they are placed immediately on desk duty until a review is conducted of their actions. Three strikes and they are subject to firing if the allegations against them are proven.
    • A national police database should be established by the DOJ and include all information/data on crime, violence, as well as information on police officers whose employment has been terminated due to misconduct or overuse of violence.
    • A national standard should be set for training police dispatchers.
    • Additional special phone numbers should be created nationally, each one clearly defined by its purpose. 411 for general information, 911 for police emergencies, 811 for Fire and other related emergencies, 711 for medical emergencies, 611 for mental health or domestic situations, and 511 for all other calls or when the caller is not sure who to call for help.
    • Programs need to be set up so that the police do not have to respond to every situation so that there are others ready to respond to non-violent, domestic, social, or other calls.
    • The culture of having minor laws on the books for the sole purpose of raising cash through fines should be ended. If there is a situation where a person is performing an act (like selling something on a street corner) in violation of local or state laws, the person should be identified and sent a letter stating that they need to appear in court to respond to the violation. A small court judge will then decide if the person should be fined for their actions.
    • Police should be trained to not stop every car that has a minor violation, that they can run license plates if there is a suspicion of a problem, then report the car if there isn’t anything serious like the possibility of the car being stolen. All non-criminal and non-dangerous infractions, such as expire plates, broken headlights, speeding less than 5 MPH over the speed limit, and so on should be referred to a traffic violations division. Violations can be handled by sending out warnings or letters of violations to the owner of the car through the mail.
    • Police should only pull over cars if they run the plates and find that the car is stolen if the driver is driving at excessive and dangerous speeds, if there is a warrant for the arrest of the car owner, or if the driver is driving recklessly and endangering other drivers, or if the car has no plates visible anywhere on the car.
    • Police and community programs should be created to allow the police to get to know the members of their community, and for the community to get to know the police officers.
    • Gun control laws should be tightened so as to remove some of the inherent risks to police officers.
    • police officers should be trained to deal with the threat of violence uniformly regardless of the situation and to de-escalate it whenever possible.
    • When police are called on to perform crowd control roles, they should understand the possible threat and act only as needed. Police should not engage unless a situation turns violent, unless they are attacked, or unless the property is being destroyed or stolen. They should be authorized to only arrest those who carry weapons, commit crimes, or acts of violence. At no time should police engage in dispersal tactics. If there is an announced curfew, it should be announced to those present. If they remain peaceful, they should not be forced out. It is up to local leaders to press the attendees to retire for the night.
    • Children should always be treated differently than adults regardless of whatever potential crime they may be involved in. Police should never draw weapons, tasers, pepper spray, or other use of force against a minor.

    I completely understand that these are some ideas by someone who is not a professional lawmaker, although on that level, it is thoughtful and informed. It is one of my favorite posts from the political threads.

    One thing to consider is the potential unintended consequences.

    With federal standards there will need to be someone who enforces the rules and investigates these. This can lead to some pushback. We could also easily imagine a presidential administration that is very pro-cop having much lower standards than a progressive state government, although the federal standards could at least be a baseline. There is a potential complication when you have top-down directives that apply to all communities, be it a city with ridiculously high rent, a college town, or a lightly populated rural county.

    I'm not sure the problem is one of a lack of training, as much as some cops failing to take it seriously. More training could very well be redundant, although there are some ways to square the circle, like requiring cops to take tests to make sure they understand the trending.

    The idea that equipment should be the minimum of what is needed at any time (which leaves them with one option for each situation) is rather limited. It takes away choice, and probably makes things really expensive, requiring every officer to have all these tools available.

    Should the independent police board be local, statewide or federal? What kind of subpoena powers will they have? How time consuming should the investigations be? That can be complicated.

    I was worried the three strikes rule might have disproportionate results, if all that matters is that there is a complaint (cops would be worse off if they work in areas where there are a lot of BS complaints) but it's less of an issue if it's three findings of wrongdoing. There are still be some complications if we don't take into account the realities of the job, and standard imperfections (IE- if paperwork mistakes most cops make at least once an year become part o the three strikes.)

    The national database could be useful, given all the officers fired in one jurisdiction who go elsewhere. I do worry that one likely result is less honest explanations of why cops left one region. There might need to be mechanisms to prevent anyone filing the paperwork from coming up with a face-saving alternative explanation.

    I don't think the multiple numbers for calls works. Some regions will have more limited resources. There would also likely be some wrong numbers if 911 is only for police. How long will it take people to internalize that they should call 811 for fire, and 711 for medical? Is this something kids or tourists can learn? There is also the reality that many situations involve multiple emergency agencies. If a building catches fire that could necessitate firefighters and ambulances. In addition, one serious problem is that there are too many civilians who call for the police when it's not necessary, and this doesn't address that. Civilians aren't going to do a great job of recognizing when mental health professional sare needed.

    I definitely agree we should eliminate the idea of having fines mainly to raise cash. There can specifically be some systems in place to reverse that. However, a truth is that many of these laws exist for a reason. We don't always want someone to set up a bazaar on city streets, and sending a letter means the problem isn't resolved quickly.

    If the police don't respond to minor violations, there will be delays in people learning of potentially serious problems, to say nothing of the possibility they'll get fined multiple times for the same offense.

    I certainly agree on the need for clear standards on when to pull over cars. Even if there may be one or two other situations which merit it, clear standards can be good. I have no problem with getting rid of pretext stops.

    https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/*******...-lawmakers-say

    One potential problem with making it up to local leaders to enforce a curfew is that they have no authority to back up their requests.

    An absolute standard against using force on a minor is likely to backfire when teenagers commit serious crimes.

    I wish the legislators dealing with the issue put the same amount of thought into their comments and proposals as you did here.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #27708
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    It sounds crazy where you are. Please, stay safe.

    Meanwhile, here in Philly, the supermarket I regularly shop at half a mile from my house put up the plywood on its windows. Can't say I'm surprised since my neighborhood got hit plenty hard by rioting and looting a year ago, I'm sure businesses from coast to coast will be going into board up mode as a hedge against a repeat performance should Chauvin be acquitted. The whole damn country will be nervous awaiting the verdict.
    Thanks, man. Yeah, I'm sure I will be okay -- no reason I would be any specific target, and no plans to get out into the mayhem if it starts up, so not so much worried for myself. I love my town though, and there's a lot of people a lot more vulnerable than me, so ... yeah, just really hoping the verdict goes the way it rightfully should!

    And yeah, the plywood look has been the default decor around these parts for about a year now. And of course, very much become just all the rage everywhere, in the last week. Here is hoping it's something we all see less of, going forward.
    Be kind to me, or treat me mean
    I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine

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