All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Socialist governments haven't always had the most enlightened attitudes toward homosexuality, often viewing it as another form of bourgeois decadence, but it should be fairly obvious that the persecution of gays in these countries was merely an extension of pre-existing cultural attitudes and didn't happen because of anything inherent to Marxist ideology. If anything, the condition of LGBT rights in most of the former Soviet bloc has become far worse since the USSR fell, since that heralded a resurgence of nationalist and traditionalist ideologies which ARE inherently hostile to homosexuality.

Look I get that socialism and Marxism isn't homophobic in principle but the fact that these governments did horrible stuff can't be glossed over, or excused away.

"extension of pre-existing cultural attitudes" is a bad excuse for a regime committed to providing a new and better way of life. You can't promise that and excuse the bad stuff by saying this was down to corruption that existed before the revolution.

What I said about responsibility to hold Trump's voters to account, applies to everyone.

[Wildling]

I perhaps naively hoped that almost dying of the virus in early October would prompt change in Trump, and hopefully he’d take on a more responsible approach to the virus....


Boy was I wrong. Dead wrong.

It's okay, as long as we have people like Mets to politely, peacefully in our time remind us people complain more than offer solutions about the party that spends more time dragging their feet accepting election results to not make Trump take time off from not doing anything to Coronavirus to complain about /them/.

[PwrdOn]

Look I get that socialism and Marxism isn't homophobic in principle but the fact that these governments did horrible stuff can't be glossed over, or excused away.

"extension of pre-existing cultural attitudes" is a bad excuse for a regime committed to providing a new and better way of life. You can't promise that and excuse the bad stuff by saying this was down to corruption that existed before the revolution.

What I said about responsibility to hold Trump's voters to account, applies to everyone.

Look, if we have to mourn over every atrocity committed under a left wing government before we can start talking about defunding the police, we'll never get anywhere. And let's not act like there was widespread acceptance of homosexuality ANYWHERE until very recently, I'm sure we don't have to think back too far to remember a time where homophobic slurs were near ubiquitous in our society and nobody batted an eye. The fact that Cuba under Castro wasn't any better than the US when it came to LGBT rights isn't something that's giving me second thoughts about supporting universal healthcare.

[godisawesome]

A thought occurs to me that an alternative tactic to saying “Defund the Police” might be the more crude but differently pro active “Wash the $#!+ off of the police” or something else like that.

I feel there’s some untapped potential to control to narrative by vocally drawing a line between “good cops” and “criminals with a badge” - to use rhetoric pointing out good men and women being shamed and disgraced by frauds in the ranks, and then beating the drum hard enough to make it clear that includes systemic corruption, racism, and failure.

I mean, even when departments have been defunded... a police department of some kind shows up where it was, and usually has some continuity with the previous one, albeit stripped of as many problematic or poisonous elements as possible.

The hard part with the argument is the way bad cops and lesser cops try (and often succeed) to hide behind a blue wall of unanimity; the narrative needs to be reconfigured into those “bad apples” disgracing and being unworthy of their ostensible brothers in arms, and to start trying to drive a wedge between conscientious law enforcement officers that *are* present and even just lazy cops.

And that means being ready for when huge numbers of cops and some whole unions end up having their colors revealed.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Look, if we have to mourn over every atrocity committed under a left wing government before we can start talking about defunding the police, we'll never get anywhere.

1) I am not asking you to "mourn".

2) "Defunding the Police" was never a popular position in a regime like Cuba and other totalitarian communist regimes since they needed the police, so it's not like this kind of position is somehow communistic in any real sense.

There's absolutely no need to think "Defund the Police" is in any sense associated with communist atrocities or anything for it to be included in the same sentence.

And let's not act like there was widespread acceptance of homosexuality ANYWHERE until very recently, I'm sure we don't have to think back too far to remember a time where homophobic slurs were near ubiquitous in our society and nobody batted an eye. The fact that Cuba under Castro wasn't any better than the US when it came to LGBT rights isn't something that's giving me second thoughts about supporting universal healthcare.

I agree, but this kind of playing down and so on isn't something we need to do nor is it something we have to own. It's unnecessary.

[PwrdOn]

1) I am not asking you to "mourn".

2) "Defunding the Police" was never a popular position in a regime like Cuba and other totalitarian communist regimes since they needed the police, so it's not like this kind of position is somehow communistic in any real sense.

There's absolutely no need to think "Defund the Police" is in any sense associated with communist atrocities or anything for it to be included in the same sentence.



I agree, but this kind of playing down and so on isn't something we need to do nor is it something we have to own. It's unnecessary.

Yeah but think about the logic here, if defunding the police is communism, but supporting the police is ALSO communism, then what exactly isn't communism? We can't really even have a conversation about communism without acknowledging that the term has been co-opted by the right wing to basically stand for EVERYTHING that they don't like, which may even include certain police organizations, after all the conspiracy theorists are always babbling on about 1984 and the police state and what not, just not the ones that are tasked with protecting THEIR property. Of course, the actual central tenet of Marxism, the workers owning the means of production, is such a far-flung fantasy these days that it never even gets brought up even in scaremongering propaganda. When Fox hosts rant about the radicalism of the far left, they're just talking about Amazon workers possibly making $15/hour, not rising up and seizing the company's assets from Bezos, though who can deny that would be pretty awesome to see?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah but think about the logic here, if defunding the police is communism, but supporting the police is ALSO communism, then what exactly isn't communism?

keanu whoa.jpg

We can't really even have a conversation about communism without acknowledging that the term has been co-opted by the right wing to basically stand for EVERYTHING that they don't like, which may even include certain police organizations, after all the conspiracy theorists are always babbling on about 1984 and the police state and what not, just not the ones that are tasked with protecting THEIR property. Of course, the actual central tenet of Marxism, the workers owning the means of production, is such a far-flung fantasy these days that it never even gets brought up even in scaremongering propaganda.

The way I see it was that "Democracy" was a dirty word in the 1700s and for most of human history, with everyone from Aristotle downwards talking about it in a manner that Communism was discussed. That's the entire "We're not a Democracy but a Republic" argument you hear from the right. Democracy got a bad rap because of stuff like the French Revolution and Robespierre was the first guy who essentially defined and codified modern democracy and man did he do horrible stuff. But ultimately, today everyone believes in Democracy as Robespierre defined it, where every citizen has the right to vote, and every citizen has equal rights regardless of race and religion. Communism or some form of socialism might well carry the future someday, even Stalin and Mao can't take that dream away. But in the short term you have to address the reality...just as revolutionaries in the 19th Century had to address Robespierre and the guillotine, even Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels who denounced the Reign of Terror numerous times. As for changing the discussion about communism...that's a long-term goal and plan.

[CJStriker]

JUST IN: NBC News, CNN Project Biden Wins Arizona, Adding to His Electoral College Lead!

https://www.mediaite.com/election-20...-college-lead/

[PwrdOn]

keanu whoa.jpg



The way I see it was that "Democracy" was a dirty word in the 1700s and for most of human history, with everyone from Aristotle downwards talking about it in a manner that Communism was discussed. That's the entire "We're not a Democracy but a Republic" argument you hear from the right. Democracy got a bad rap because of stuff like the French Revolution and Robespierre was the first guy who essentially defined and codified modern democracy and man did he do horrible stuff. But ultimately, today everyone believes in Democracy as Robespierre defined it, where every citizen has the right to vote, and every citizen has equal rights regardless of race and religion. Communism or some form of socialism might well carry the future someday, even Stalin and Mao can't take that dream away. But in the short term you have to address the reality...just as revolutionaries in the 19th Century had to address Robespierre and the guillotine, even Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels who denounced the Reign of Terror numerous times. As for changing the discussion about communism...that's a long-term goal and plan.

I mean, the disdain people used to have for democracy was rooted in the same impulse as the hatred for communism now - the fear that the poors will rise up and take all of their stuff. People only came around on democracy because they were able to devise a version of it that managed to preserve private property by using checks and balances to stymie any attempts of the masses to vote for a more equal redistribution. Rebranding communism in the same way might prove to be rather difficult, but I'm sure that if that ever does happen there will just be another populist ideology that arises to be the bogeyman.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yeah but think about the logic here, if defunding the police is communism, but supporting the police is ALSO communism, then what exactly isn't communism?

The former is right wing propaganda, the latter is true since dictatorships on both sides of the political aisle rely on police to enforce their authoritarian rule. That's why dictatorships are bad.

We can't really even have a conversation about communism without acknowledging that the term has been co-opted by the right wing to basically stand for EVERYTHING that they don't like, which may even include certain police organizations, after all the conspiracy theorists are always babbling on about 1984 and the police state and what not, just not the ones that are tasked with protecting THEIR property.

Sure we can, but having a conversation requires being able to criticise the subject not simply going along with it because it happens to be on the left politically. In theory, Communism sounds incredible the problem is when it's put in practice and when the bad things those regimes have done are minimised or celebrated rather than discarded. There is indeed strong anti-Communist propaganda, however, just because there is doesn't erase the bad things Communist states have done and which hurt the left to this day by associating with it. Do you think the police attacking the protesters in Hong Kong are doing that to protect property? I think they're oppressing competition to the Chinese government's autocracy.

Of course, the actual central tenet of Marxism, the workers owning the means of production, is such a far-flung fantasy these days that it never even gets brought up even in scaremongering propaganda. When Fox hosts rant about the radicalism of the far left, they're just talking about Amazon workers possibly making $15/hour, not rising up and seizing the company's assets from Bezos, though who can deny that would be pretty awesome to see?

Except Marxism has to make progress by surpassing its failures against racism, sexism and oppression when they govern - we know the left can accomplish this but to date no Communist county has. True about Fox, but the fact is the Democrats and the left don't have to sugar coat regimes like Cuba simply because they're not right wing. Learning from the pst requires not repeating those mistakes, not brushing off atrocities left wing governments commit - what's the point in replacing a right wing dictatorship with a left wing one?

[PwrdOn]

The former is right wing propaganda, the latter is true since dictatorships on both sides of the political aisle rely on police to enforce their authoritarian rule. That's why dictatorships are bad.

Sure we can, but having a conversation requires being able to criticise the subject not simply going along with it because it happens to be on the left politically. In theory, Communism sounds incredible the problem is when it's put in practice and when the bad things those regimes have done are minimised or celebrated rather than discarded. There is indeed strong anti-Communist propaganda, however, just because there is doesn't erase the bad things Communist states have done and which hurt the left to this day by associating with it. Do you think the police attacking the protesters in Hong Kong are doing that to protect property? I think they're oppressing competition to the Chinese government's autocracy.

Except Marxism has to make progress by surpassing its failures against racism, sexism and oppression when they govern - we know the left can accomplish this but to date no Communist county has. True about Fox, but the fact is the Democrats and the left don't have to sugar coat regimes like Cuba simply because they're not right wing. Learning from the pst requires not repeating those mistakes, not brushing off atrocities left wing governments commit - what's the point in replacing a right wing dictatorship with a left wing one?

So if the police are tools to enforce authoritarian rule in dictatorships, and we have a president that exhibits dictatorial tendencies, this means that the police are bad and that we should defund them, right? This won't change when Biden takes over either, many police departments outright refused to enforce lockdown orders issued by Democratic governors and the police unions all endorsed Trump in the election, it's hard to see any of them really embracing gentler and more sensitive tactics anytime soon. Oh, and of course the Hong Kong police were out there to defend private property, after all they were established by the British during the colonial period and existed mainly to keep the locals from damaging British commercial interests, and the only thing that's changed since then is the upper management. It's not like the protests were ever an existential threat to the Chinese government, since they never bothered to deploy any forces based out of mainland China, even the army garrison that is stationed in Hong Kong stayed in their barracks throughout.

[Tendrin]

Jesus f***ing Christ.

Pretty sure he's nowhere to be found atm.

[Steel Inquisitor]

So if the police are tools to enforce authoritarian rule in dictatorships, and we have a president that exhibits dictatorial tendencies, this means that the police are bad and that we should defund them, right? This won't change when Biden takes over either, many police departments outright refused to enforce lockdown orders issued by Democratic governors and the police unions all endorsed Trump in the election, it's hard to see any of them really embracing gentler and more sensitive tactics anytime soon.

Police are an instrument, which corrupt governments employ to uphold their agenda but they're not without worth in society, someone has to protect the citizens from criminals - that's why every government on Earth have them. Sure, but this needn't be a straw man they'll need to be reformed and that'll happen more under a Biden than a Trump. It'll be q struggle to accomplish we shouldn't just give up because it's hard.

Oh, and of course the Hong Kong police were out there to defend private property, after all they were established by the British during the colonial period and existed mainly to keep the locals from damaging British commercial interests, and the only thing that's changed since then is the upper management. It's not like the protests were ever an existential threat to the Chinese government, since they never bothered to deploy any forces based out of mainland China, even the army garrison that is stationed in Hong Kong stayed in their barracks throughout.

China's been active against the protesters in Hong Kong since the beginning, they're just using proxies. They don't need to dispatch their own troops when the police, government and Triads will do it for them. It gives them plausible deniability.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49071502

Democratic lawmaker Lam Cheuk-ting, who was hurt during the train station attack, told Reuters that the police ignored his pleas to intervene. “They deliberately turned a blind eye to these attacks by triads on regular citizens,” he told Reuters. “I won’t speculate on why they didn’t help immediately.”

Other pro-democracy lawmakers were more direct, with a group of activists calling the police “servants of the triads.”

“Last night, the 999 reporting hotline would not connect for a long time and the police station was closed,” about two dozen pro-democracy lawmakers said in a statement, according to the Hong Kong Free Press. “There were even police officers who pretended they didn’t see the actions of those in white shirts and red ribbons, and turned around to leave.”

Triads have been accused of political intimidation in the past, including during the 2014 Umbrella Movement protests in Hong Kong. According to the BBC, researchers found that triad members had been paid to attack demonstrators during that movement:

Triads “might have found a new role as enforcer of unpopular policies and repression of democratic protests in the context of a drift towards authoritarianism in Hong Kong”, the report concludes.

What do the Triads have to gain by this?

Recently pro-democracy politicians in Hong Kong have quit in protest over the government's actions and Carrie Lam, HK's Chief Executive, and has been working for the Chinese government's interests for a while. She's been a controversial figure fighting against her own government during this crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Lam

[worstblogever]

Trump's evil often baffles everyone. It's like you expected him to be evil to an extent but an outright supervillain with a body count worthy of Luthor or Joker is off the scale.

Past those two's death tolls. 240,000 is more like "Mongul wipes out Coast City at Cyborg Superman's behest".

[PwrdOn]

Police are an instrument, which corrupt governments employ to uphold their agenda but they're not without worth in society, someone has to protect the citizens from criminals - that's why every government on Earth have them. Sure, but this needn't be a straw man they'll need to be reformed and that'll happen more under a Biden than a Trump. It'll be q struggle to accomplish we shouldn't just give up because it's hard.




China's been active against the protesters in Hong Kong since the beginning, they're just using proxies. They don't need to dispatch their own troops when the police, government and Triads will do it for them. It gives them plausible deniability.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49071502



What do the Triads have to gain by this?

Recently pro-democracy politicians in Hong Kong have quit in protest over the government's actions and Carrie Lam, HK's Chief Executive, and has been working for the Chinese government's interests for a while. She's been a controversial figure fighting against her own government during this crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Lam

So on one hand, police are necessary to protect us from criminals, but at the same time they also sometimes are actually in league with the criminals to suppress citizen activism?