1. #23641
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidfresh512 View Post
    What do you think can possibly happen to make 17 GOP senators do whats right? They were THERE. They were the ones being hunted and hiding under desks and evacuated. They saw the same videos we saw. They heard the same chants of hang mike Pence we did.

    It doesn't matter. Their base will be more likely to come for them if they did turn on trump.
    IDK. Trump testifying, getting carried away and blustering about having "his people" exterminate everyone who votes against him and their entire families?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Well the number is 12 now, not 17. Previously, it was 16. So there is progress on that front.

    If the outcry during the trial goes from "He's our matyr!" to "He's guilty" from a sizable section of the GOP's (not just Trump's) base, I expect vote switching.

    This also could just be show and Mitch will vote guilty. "We tried to stop it but after the trial, I am glad we didn't!" That kinda BS.

    That being said, I'm not hopeful.
    The same Mitch who wouldn't even allow the Dems power sharing agreement until he thought he could keep 2 Dems on record of never filibustering? Giving Mitch McConnel any kind of "hope" or credit is ALWAYS a mistake. Time and time again he has shown his true colors. If he tries to deny Dems getting control of the Senate for a week he has shown once again he will stop at nothing to block and obstruct. Until he can get the Senate again in midterms.

    He should want trump banished from being elected again more than anyone. And yet he knows unless he actively comes out and tries to whip up the votes himself and make the case they will not convict. Fox News and right wing media have been trying to "move on" from the insurrection since like the day after. And making excuses and what about BLM and ANTIFA. They are more up in arms about Twitter and Facebook bans than they are about a mob who killed police officers. How will the needle move on public pressure to hold trump accountable?
    Last edited by kidfresh512; 01-26-2021 at 03:36 PM.

  3. #23643
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The trial hasn't happened yet, and wait for it to come and pass, don't despair prematurely.



    I disagree completely with that.

    Impeachment is a legal sanction and moral stain that however imperfect brings some amount of accountability. Removing it would be far worse.

    The point is to bolster and improve legal penalties and not do away with what you already have on the books.
    There was an SNL sketch where, after the impeachment and the Senate not passing it, Bill Clinton goes to the podium and says, "Next time, y'all best bring kryptonite 'cause I am bulletproof". I don't think I've ever met a liberal or democrat who thinks Clinton being impeached means squat to his reputation. Only conservative Republicans think that. Democrats just consider it a partisan witch hunt, which it was.

    But most Conservatives think exactly the same thing about Trump's two impeachments. I've had conservatives outright say it means jack s**t because, in their minds, it was totally partisan. It means no more to them, maybe less, than Clinton's impeachment means to liberals. There is zero social or political stigma attached to it by the voters that matter to Trump.

    It would be interesting to be able to see what all this looks like to people fifty ort a hundred years from now when the immediacy and the emotional reaction is not there anymore, when no one living remembers the events. But that doesn't matter now in Clinton's and Trump's lifetimes.
    Power with Girl is better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    There was an SNL sketch where, after the impeachment and the Senate not passing it, Bill Clinton goes to the podium and says, "Next time, y'all best bring kryptonite 'cause I am bulletproof". I don't think I've ever met a liberal or democrat who thinks Clinton being impeached means squat to his reputation. Only conservative Republicans think that. Democrats just consider it a partisan witch hunt, which it was.

    But most Conservatives think exactly the same thing about Trump's two impeachments. I've had conservatives outright say it means jack s**t because, in their minds, it was totally partisan. It means no more to them, maybe less, than Clinton's impeachment means to liberals. There is zero social or political stigma attached to it by the voters that matter to Trump.

    It would be interesting to be able to see what all this looks like to people fifty ort a hundred years from now when the immediacy and the emotional reaction is not there anymore, when no one living remembers the events. But that doesn't matter now in Clinton's and Trump's lifetimes.
    What depresses me the most about your post is its truth. *sigh*

  5. #23645
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I do have a mental health disorder. And there were several people in prison with mental health disorders. But that does not excuse my or anyone else's criminal acts. Did the mental health issues make it hard at the time to make good choices yes. But there were people in with me who did what they did, the theft the selling drugs because they did not want to get a job and it was easy money. People who committed assault because they didnt like what a guy had to say at a bar, or they were robbing a person who had the nerve to fight back. So yes while mental illness does play a role in crimes there really are people who are in prison because they flat out chose to do what they did out of greed and selfishness. I am in that group. I did what I did for no other reason then I wanted to do it and I thought i could get away with it.

    I know there are a lot of people who want to come up with reasons on why people commit crimes and want to explain it away because that makes them feel better about the world not being as dark as it is and people who can not do such things without a reason. That every criminal is one program away from being cured. But that is not the case.

    Listen to how we talked and bragged of our crimes to each other. Listen to how we talked when there was no judge, cop or social worker listening. Most people are in prison because they belonged to be there myself included. There can be an argument for drug abuse or simple drug charges. There were people there on bs stuff. But just as many were much worse.

    For the inmates and people who do want to change the resources in prison are not great. but once released there are programs as far as counseling, job programs and housing help that are available. It does take hard work but when I hear a criminal in my state, or my county say the help is not there that is just not true. It just takes work, and it is frustrating but it can work. I am 6 and a half years out of prison and I am in a good stable place. And I know others in my area and across the state who are also doing well. Just face the fact you wont get the best job, or the best place to live. At least not until you build up a post prison history.
    I suppose there may be people like that. I don't know about there being a lot of them, though. I've worked in social services for fourteen years, and while social workers obviously think their programs are worthwhile -- the work is too hard to be bothered with it otherwise -- I don't think many at all imagine that any one program is going to "cure" any person. I'd say the outlook is generally more akin to someone who recognizes they are trying to shovel out their driveway after a blizzard, using a spoon.

    That driveway is never gonna get done that way, and that's just a grim reality. But, if it needs to be clear, you can get to work and do what you can, or you can sit back and complain about not having the right tools. And make no mistake, I understand that 95% of the world will say the work is pointless -- I just disagree about the reasons the other 5% will do it anyway.

    Anyway, I have thankfully not been to prison myself, so I will defer to your expertise on the matter. It would be nice if I could understand everything in the world, but realistically I never will, so it's all good.
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    No surprises from the GOP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    There was an SNL sketch where, after the impeachment and the Senate not passing it, Bill Clinton goes to the podium and says, "Next time, y'all best bring kryptonite 'cause I am bulletproof". I don't think I've ever met a liberal or democrat who thinks Clinton being impeached means squat to his reputation. Only conservative Republicans think that. Democrats just consider it a partisan witch hunt, which it was.
    Clinton's Impeachment cost the Dems the 2000 election. Not directly but it affected it significantly.

    Because of the scandal and controversy, Clinton didn't tour or accompany Al Gore personally, and Al Gore had to take paints to emphasize himself as a clean ethically fair candidate, and backtracked from touting the economic achievements of the Presidency. He campaigned to the center and W. did so likewise and that meant that voters felt neither party or candidate was all that different. That also allowed third party saboteurs like Nader to make inroads and compromise the Dems. Had there been no impeachment, or if there was and Clinton resigned and Al Gore took over right away and campaigned as incumbent, you could have had Gore run a more positive campaign based on a strong economic recovery.

    So yeah, it's not a case that the Impeachment didn't affect Bill Clinton or that it didn't cost the Democrat party. And again, the entire issue of Bill's sex life was one of the reasons why the Access Hollywood tape (which looked like it could sink Trump) didn't stick because conservatives were able to flip it back to Bill and his own manwhore tendencies, and it compromised HRC's women's rights credentials that she was married to a guy who cheated on her multiple times. In 2020, Clinton was so marginalized that during the DNC convention, Clinton got a small bracket to speak next to Jimmy Carter. The Impeachment of Andrew Johnson (which came within one vote of getting 2/3rds conviction) compromised him so badly that he didn't run for President after he finished Lincoln's term.

    But most Conservatives think exactly the same thing about Trump's two impeachments. I've had conservatives outright say it means jack s**t because, in their minds, it was totally partisan. It means no more to them, maybe less, than Clinton's impeachment means to liberals. There is zero social or political stigma attached to it by the voters that matter to Trump.
    Again it's too early to say and argue.

  8. #23648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    I suppose there may be people like that. I don't know about there being a lot of them, though. I've worked in social services for fourteen years, and while social workers obviously think their programs are worthwhile -- the work is too hard to be bothered with it otherwise -- I don't think many at all imagine that any one program is going to "cure" any person. I'd say the outlook is generally more akin to someone who recognizes they are trying to shovel out their driveway after a blizzard, using a spoon.

    That driveway is never gonna get done that way, and that's just a grim reality. But, if it needs to be clear, you can get to work and do what you can, or you can sit back and complain about not having the right tools. And make no mistake, I understand that 95% of the world will say the work is pointless -- I just disagree about the reasons the other 5% will do it anyway.

    Anyway, I have thankfully not been to prison myself, so I will defer to your expertise on the matter. It would be nice if I could understand everything in the world, but realistically I never will, so it's all good.
    I understand you point. I have never worked in Social Service so I dont know/understand your experiences or point of view. I wish I knew more more about how the world worked. Sadly I know more about criminals and the legal system then I wished to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I thinking the rating on the coverage if he speaks would be sky high. How many people want to see him implode on national tv under oath around a hostile crowd of senators.
    *Raises hand*

    Yes, please.
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    Senator Patrick Leahy going into a hospital. Undisclosed condition. Already pundits are going into speculation on what it could mean if it means "the worst". Sheesh.

    Well, we'll have to just see what happens. Hoping for the best. But these Democratic (and liberal-leaning Independent) senators who are up in age need to be grooming successors.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/26/sen-...-hospital.html
    Sen. Patrick Leahy was taken to a Washington hospital after “not feeling well,” his spokesman said.
    The Vermont Democrat is due to preside over the upcoming impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump,
    Leahy is the president pro tempore of the Senate, which makes him responsible for presiding over that chamber in the absence of Vice President Kamala Harris, and puts him third in line of presidential succession.
    The House impeached Trump for inciting the riot by his supporters at the Capitol complex on Jan. 6. Thousands of members of a mob invaded the halls of Congress, which was in the process of confirming the election of Joe Biden as president that day.

  11. #23651
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Thank you. it took a lot of work as I said. I am a repeat offender. The first time I just did county time the second I went to prison. I fell very much in to the trap that it was everyone else fault that I was where I was. I was three years into a four year prison term that I decided to change my act and that only came after being sent to the hospital after a bad fight. When I got out I was homeless for a month until I got into a half way house. But when I was in the house I spent my 8 months there busting my ass with programs, working a job, finding a place to live, getting mental health counseling. Very hard but it did work.

    Sorry to rant I did not mean to high jack the thread. But prisons and the people I met and what I went through is a topic I can go on and on about. I will talk about them to any one willing to ask. I am ashamed of my crime but not my experience because I feel that maybe I can do some good from it.
    The good thing is my experiences and talking about them with my nephew helped him get off a rough patch to avoid things that happened to me.
    I'm going to add to the chorus to say nice things about you. Whatever you had done before, you've paid your debt to society, and you're a decent, thoughtful man. I'm glad your experiences have helped your nephew.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    Senator Patrick Leahy going into a hospital. Undisclosed condition. Already pundits are going into speculation on what it could mean if it means "the worst". Sheesh.

    Well, we'll have to just see what happens. Hoping for the best. But these Democratic (and liberal-leaning Independent) senators who are up in age need to be grooming successors.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/26/sen-...-hospital.html
    Leahy is from Vermont, which has a Republican Governor, who has the power to appoint Leahy's replacement who will be on ballot in 2022.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm going to add to the chorus to say nice things about you. Whatever you had done before, you've paid your debt to society, and you're a decent, thoughtful man. I'm glad your experiences have helped your nephew.
    Thank you. I know we have debated in the past on politics. But you never attacked me personally so I thank you for that. Even if we dont always agree you make your points well. I have never seen you go after anyone personally which says a lot considering how heated things get here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Leahy is from Vermont, which has a Republican Governor, who has the power to appoint Leahy's replacement who will be on ballot in 2022.
    Will wait on the news but this is potentially massive if he is laid up for an extended period or god forbid anything worse

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidfresh512 View Post
    They will need Sinema and Manchin to be able to filibuster. Or get 2 GOP to help and have Harris break it to change the rules and get legislation through using the nuclear option. Both Sinema and Manchin said they are not down for that and wont even entertain it later.

    If they stick to what they said Biden's whole agenda will be fucked. He might be able to get another covid relief plan done in reconciliation with the budget using just Democrats. But Mitch will stall anything else.

    And memories are short Democrats can easily lose the slim majority in '22 if we don't get record turnout again.
    There was talk that they may change the rules of Reconciliation to allow more types of legislation to be passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by kidfresh512 View Post
    What do you think can possibly happen to make 17 GOP senators do whats right? They were THERE. They were the ones being hunted and hiding under desks and evacuated. They saw the same videos we saw. They heard the same chants of hang mike Pence we did.

    It doesn't matter. Their base will be more likely to come for them if they did turn on trump.
    Rachel Maddow threw out an idea not to long ago- when it comes time to vote Guilty or Not Guilty for Trump, 17 Republicans just have to NOT show up. They need a majority of Senators present, not the whole body, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Leahy is from Vermont, which has a Republican Governor, who has the power to appoint Leahy's replacement who will be on ballot in 2022.
    While I hope he is okay and he comes back soon, I'm really starting to fear we have another RBG situation here. Someone getting up in years who maybe should have rode off into the sunset earlier who suddenly dies (god forbid) and who get's replaced with a Republican conservative pick.

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