1. #21526
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    The 2000 election was stolen from Gore. Like legit stolen. he did his legal challenges but when he lost he didnt bitch and whine like a baby. he certified the EC results and if I remember correctly he was not overly thrilled with the ones who did protest the results because he knew it was pointless, would bring anger from people and he wanted to move on.

    Trump spent months before the election saying it was fraud and it would be stolen. He and his lackeys spent months after lying to supporters and voters and fanning the flames with talk of a stolen election. He told people to match on the capital, has been tweeting for weeks about taking back the government. Even after the attempted Coup Howley and Cruz and many others still fanned the flames and continued with the lies.

    It is in no way the same. Yes you did call Cruz attempt bullshit. But to try and draw the two as close to the same is not correct. When you give an official voice to a man who tried to pull off a coup, and called the people who did this while they were doing this heroes and he loved them? Giving a voice to that yes there should be talks of having them removed. There is no both sides to this.
    Last edited by babyblob; 01-09-2021 at 08:34 AM.
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  2. #21527
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Alabama AG leads nonprofit that helped organize march at Capitol

    Alabama Attorney General Steve Marshall plays a critical role in the group that helped organize the protest and rally that preceded the riots, attack and attempted insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.

    Marshall leads the Republican Attorneys General Association’s dark-money nonprofit Rule of Law Defense Fund, which is listed as a participating organization for the March to Save America on the march’s website, as are the groups Stop the Steal, Tea Party Patriots and Turning Point Action.

    The website is now down, but archived versions show RLDF as a participating group.

    “I am honored to lead RAGA’s policy branch, the Rule of Law Defense Fund, and bring conservative attorneys general together in promotion of federalism, freedom, and the rule of law,” Marshall said in a Nov. 10 statement to RAGA.
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  3. #21528
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Not arrest, but doing so after the Capitol was stormed. Using bullshit arguments he knows where lies and only doing so to delay the inauguration, removal is warranted.

    Let me ask you this, should Trump be impeached for this an other recent things he has done? (Georgia phone call) Should he be prosecuted and sent to prison if convicted for the numerous crimes he has commited?
    To be clear, do you think Cruz should be removed because he voted the way he did after the Capitol was stormed? Is that the important difference?

    As for Trump, those are good questions. If he's convicted for numerous crimes, he should go to jail.

    There's certainly enough to indict, or to go forward with an impeachment. In the criminal justice system, it would take a trial to determine whether there's enough to convict. Trump's challenge of the election results is one of the two worst things he's ever done (the other is helping turn masks into a culture war issue) and the last week has seen his biggest abuses on that. However, it may be difficult to convict on the phone call because if he really did believe there were stolen Republican ballots, or other forms of election fraud, it would be reasonable to ask for a further investigation. It would be based on an apeshit insane conspiracy, but it would be a factor in arguments about his frame of mind. Calling for a protest is also not illegal, and the Supreme Court did rule that protest organizers aren't responsible for the actions of others, in a case of a Black Lives Matter organizer sued by a police officer seriously injured in a protest.

    That said, there may be evidence to show that Trump knew that the election was fair or didn't care, and took advantage of the red mirage (the correctly anticipated phenomenon that early results would favor Republicans, as these voters are more likely to vote in person and those results get counted faster) in a closer than expected election.

    It does seem that impeachment wouldn't be completed in time to remove him from office. If he had done the same things after winning the election (IE- if he was trying to prove he won more states that he did), there'd be no question he should be impeached, because the alternative is him staying in office for four more years. There is precedent for impeaching someone who no longer holds elected office, with the impeachment of Secretary of War William K. Belknap continuing after he resigned, and I wouldn't mind Trump legally being barred from running again.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  4. #21529
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    To be clear, do you think Cruz should be removed because he voted the way he did after the Capitol was stormed? Is that the important difference?
    Yes, because the language of a stolen election, which Cruz knew to be a lie, had just incited one of the worst acts of domestic unrest we have seen. To stand up in the Senate and further incite that with his speech is grounds for removal. It's not the vote alone, which was loathsome in itself, it was the inciting those that had just rioted in the Capitol.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #21530
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    To be clear, do you think Cruz should be removed because he voted the way he did after the Capitol was stormed? Is that the important difference?
    Its not just how Cruz and Howley voted after the coup. It is the fact that for over a week before the rally Trump was talking about taking the government back on the 6th. His family, his own lawyer talked about a show of strength and taking the government back, a trial by combat, Trumpers on social media have been talking before hand about storming the capital, saying grab your guns and ammo this is the revolution. It was no secret what any of them had in mind and wanted to happen. Hell everyone in America it seemed knew what was going to happen. Well other then the police and national guard that is.

    At best they should have said you know what, maybe now is not the right time. We should not encourage and give credit to the lies. Not when so many people are talking of acts of violence. We will still be in office lets do something like call for an investigation after Biden is sworn in. Yet they still did what they did. And they made it worse by voting after the coup. At best they showed piss poor judgment and should not hold the office they do. At worst they encouraged a crime.
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  6. #21531
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    The 2000 election was stolen from Gore. Like legit stolen. he did his legal challenges but when he lost he didnt bitch and whine like a baby. he certified the EC results and if I remember correctly he was not overly thrilled with the ones who did protest the results because he knew it was pointless, would bring anger from people and he wanted to move on.

    Trump spent months before the election saying it was fraud and it would be stolen. He and his lackeys spent months after lying to supporters and voters and fanning the flames with talk of a stolen election. He told people to match on the capital, has been tweeting for weeks about taking back the government. Even after the attempted Coup Howley and Cruz and many others still fanned the flames and continued with the lies.

    It is in no way the same. Yes you did call Cruz attempt bullshit. But to try and draw the two as close to the same is not correct. When you give an official voice to a man who tried to pull off a coup, and called the people who did this while they were doing this heroes and he loved them? Giving a voice to that yes there should be talks of having them removed. There is no both sides to this.
    I wasn't comparing Gore to Trump. I was comparing the congressional challenge after the 2020 election to the congressional challenges in 2000, 2004 and 2016.

    I certainly disagree with the idea that the election was stolen from Gore. The reviews suggest that the legal strategy the Gore campaign pursued would not have come up with enough votes.

    https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/polit...ies/index.html
    https://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/th...count-of-2000/
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  7. #21532
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    To be clear, do you think Cruz should be removed because he voted the way he did after the Capitol was stormed?
    Yes.

    As for Trump, those are good questions. If he's convicted for numerous crimes, he should go to jail.
    My dude, the only way Trump can be convicted is if Republican senators agree to do so.

    The modifier "if" disguises the outcome as a natural happenstance when in fact the outcome is entirely in the hands of human agency.

    So I ask you, as a Republican moderate, do you consent on holding your party accountable? Will you call the Senators and Representatives and make known your wish that you want to see Trump impeached, convicted and removed from the party the same way McCarthy and Nixon were held to account by their party?

    Will you on this public platform make known your wish for this to be the case?

    ...I wouldn't mind Trump legally being barred from running again.
    Do you know how you can guarantee that? By insisting that your party senators and reps enact their constitutional duty, and vote to convict him.

  8. #21533
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I wasn't comparing Gore to Trump. I was comparing the congressional challenge after the 2020 election to the congressional challenges in 2000, 2004 and 2016.

    I certainly disagree with the idea that the election was stolen from Gore. The reviews suggest that the legal strategy the Gore campaign pursued would not have come up with enough votes.

    https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/polit...ies/index.html
    https://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/th...count-of-2000/
    If you are trying to compare the challenges then yes you have to take into account the people who ran for president at the time. I dont know much about the other challenges so I will not comment on them other then I am pretty damn sure that no one who challenged or ran for office called for a coup.

    I dont know if his legal challenges would have panned out. But I know when Gore's legal options were over he did his duty and declared Bush the winner. He did not hold a fucking rally and tell his supporters to storm the government. That is what makes things different.

    But in the case of the challenge on the 6th the GOP was giving voice to out right lies and crazy conspiracy theories. They gave voice to this when it was known Trump and his lackeys were doing everything they could to cause violence among his supporters. They then made it worse but continuing to do so after a failed coup and a so called president who called these people special and he loved them. A man who refused to call out the guard to stop them and cheered them on. When this has happened you as a law maker and a human being stop supporting this man. Yet they doubled down on their support. In this case it is clear they do not give a damn about America or the office they took an oath to uphold and should immediately be removed from office.

    There is no way. no way to compare the challenges in any way shape or form. Trying to do so down plays the events of the 6th and the man who caused it to happen.

    And it is not just how they voted. It is them saying that impeachment is too far a step. It is defending the people who stormed the capital and making heroes of them. It is saying Trump did nothing wrong to begin with. I am not 100 percent on impeachment being an effective use of time right now. I think having a full investigation into what happened and who caused it and holding them legally responsible is better. but I will support it if it goes forward. The GOP is not willing to make any one responsible for this. Saying it was a protest, and saying it was Antifa etc... They should be removed from office the second they defend a coup.

    I did say sorry in my post because you said you were not defending these people. That you were just comparing and you did call Cruz protest bullshit. Fine I took you at your word. But the more you try and compare the challenges and actions of the law makers on the 6th to past challenges by the Dems makes it clear you are defending these people at worst or making the actions of the two parties the same at best. Either way it is pretty shitty.
    Last edited by babyblob; 01-09-2021 at 09:27 AM.
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  9. #21534
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Mets keeps using the canard of Gore's legal strategy, instead of looking at the actual votes in Florida and who the people actually voted for. Florida was a clusterf**k, with badly designed ballots and too much deference given to GOP objectors. But if we look at the actual votes, the choice the people tried to make, Gore won by thousands.
    So to keep going back to Gore's legal strategy, which is bullshit too, because the Florida Supreme Court called for a total recount, and not to talk about all the legal votes is disingenuous in the least.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ctions2000.usa
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  10. #21535
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    There's no need to bring and defend Gore, or get into the nuances of objection of votes and what grounds are there and so on.

    What Mets is doing is moral equivocation. He refuses to identify and condemn the happenings by his party as exceptional in scale and scope and instead seeks to dodge and skirt this.

    Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley
    -- Cast doubts on a legitimate, free, and fair election with no amibiguity or small margin as to create reasonable doubts.
    -- Ted Cruz and Hawley incited and entertained a mob with false votes likening them to American Revolutionaries.
    -- Cruz/Hawley proceeded to object to the certification of votes made by states they do not represent (AZ) against the wishes of that state's senators and the Republican party of that state.
    -- Hawley pumped a fist at the crowd on the morning of the insurrection.
    -- They did fundraising activities during the siege.
    -- And even after that, after that, they still decided that they will object to the certification.

    Anyone who tries to equate this to 2000-01 or even 2016-17 is in complete bad faith.

    This is exceptional beyond all measure, actions condemned by the Republican party, with top donors and state officials in Missouri and Texas, as well as newspapers there calling for their resignation.

  11. #21536
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    I must say I have been enjoying the mug shots so far.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  12. #21537
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yes.



    My dude, the only way Trump can be convicted is if Republican senators agree to do so.

    The modifier "if" disguises the outcome as a natural happenstance when in fact the outcome is entirely in the hands of human agency.

    So I ask you, as a Republican moderate, do you consent on holding your party accountable? Will you call the Senators and Representatives and make known your wish that you want to see Trump impeached, convicted and removed from the party the same way McCarthy and Nixon were held to account by their party?

    Will you on this public platform make known your wish for this to be the case?



    Do you know how you can guarantee that? By insisting that your party senators and reps enact their constitutional duty, and vote to convict him.
    Impeachment and prosecution are two different things, so it's not that true that Republican Senators are the only ones who can convict.

    Congress can impeach and impose penalties. Trump can also be prosecuted for any criminal actions. The arguments against prosecuting a sitting President don't apply after 12PM on Wednesday, January 20.

    In either case, I don't know if there is enough to convict, which has to be a very high bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Its not just how Cruz and Howley voted after the coup. It is the fact that for over a week before the rally Trump was talking about taking the government back on the 6th. His family, his own lawyer talked about a show of strength and taking the government back, a trial by combat, Trumpers on social media have been talking before hand about storming the capital, saying grab your guns and ammo this is the revolution. It was no secret what any of them had in mind and wanted to happen. Hell everyone in America it seemed knew what was going to happen. Well other then the police and national guard that is.

    At best they should have said you know what, maybe now is not the right time. We should not encourage and give credit to the lies. Not when so many people are talking of acts of violence. We will still be in office lets do something like call for an investigation after Biden is sworn in. Yet they still did what they did. And they made it worse by voting after the coup. At best they showed piss poor judgment and should not hold the office they do. At worst they encouraged a crime.
    I don't think most people knew the capitol was going to get stormed.

    One way I heard it described was that the authorities were expecting the March For Life, and instead got Charlottesville.

    With Cruz and Hawley, the specific question is the standard to either convict them or remove them from the Senate.

    There are plenty of members of congress who show piss poor judgment and should not hold the office they do. The main way to get rid of them is to vote them out, or in some extreme cases, pressure them to resign (something that has only happened three times in my lifetime.)

    Whether Cruz should lose to Beto O'Rourke or Hawley should lose to Jason Kander in the next election is a separate question from whether they should be convicted or expelled.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 01-09-2021 at 03:55 PM.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  13. #21538
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Jack is right. i will not bring up Gore any more.

    I will ask this to clear any doubts in my mind.

    Do you Mets think that Trump needs to be put in jail for saying the past week and more that his people need to take the government back and then tells them to march on the capital? A march he said he would join them in btw then ran back to the White House. Do you think That Rudy needs to go to jail for saying to take the government back by trial by combat? Then these two men sat back and watched with glee as these people raid the capital and killed a police officer. Trump was cheering this. Then he said he loved them and called them special. Do you think they should be in jail for encouraging a coup?
    Last edited by babyblob; 01-09-2021 at 09:47 AM.
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  14. #21539
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Wow, Trump lost right wing nut job, Neal Boortz.



    Unexpected decency, if you have occasionally seen this guy's tweets or heard his radio show.

    Edit: And of course, his former fans are in disarray.

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    Hillary was right!

  15. #21540
    BANNED Joker's Avatar
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    Imagine being pro fascism in 2021 and thinking you're on the right side.

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