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  1. #3871
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Another current debate in UK has been about the withdrawal of past programs from some platforms because of racial language, etc.

    Latest example is removal of an episode of Fawlty Towers in which Basil upsets some German guests and The Major utters some unpleasant remarks about the West Indian cricket team.

    On that I think I would regret the episode being permanently removed. It’s very funny, and I think it’s completely obvious the two characters concerned are not admirable.
    Yeah, I've heard about that controversy. I think a strong warning might be in order rather than a ban. I don't like art being censored ever. Artwork should be allowed to be offensive, especially comedy. If a person doesn't like it don't watch.

    My family always enjoyed Fawlty Towers. I remember watching it as a kid in the late 1980s and 1990s on PBS. The show truly is a masterpiece but also a product of its time.

    Edit - The entire purpose of that episode alongside several others is that Basil Fawlty is an uptight somewhat bigoted man (made worse in this case by a head injury). The series shows these traits are not to be excused as Basil always gets himself and the hotel in trouble. No one admires him for these negative character traits and more often than not he is called out by other characters in various ways. If they start censoring the series that thread will be lost which would be a shame.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-12-2020 at 09:54 PM.
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  2. #3872
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Yeah, I've heard about that controversy. I think a strong warning might be in order rather than a ban. I don't like art being censored ever. Artwork should be allowed to be offensive, especially comedy. If a person doesn't like it don't watch.

    My family always enjoyed Fawlty Towers. I remember watching it as a kid in the late 1980s and 1990s on PBS. The show truly is a masterpiece but also a product of its time.

    Edit - The entire purpose of that episode alongside several others is that Basil Fawlty is an uptight somewhat bigoted man (made worse in this case by a head injury). The series shows these traits are not to be excused as Basil always gets himself and the hotel in trouble. No one admires him for these negative character traits and more often than not he is called out by other characters in various ways. If they start censoring the series that thread will be lost which would be a shame.
    Whoopie Goldburg made a really good point on having introductions to some of the Disney movies, like Song of the South and Peter Pan (Redman song), to better educated people about the era and also to show both the positive and negative aspects of the movies. Could the same be done for Faulty Towers

  3. #3873
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Ugh!, I live in Palmdale. He's right it's all over social media, but is only now getting into the main street press.
    Why did it take so long for the press to cover this I wonder? I would think someone found hanging near city hall it would be all over the news earlier. I know it ended up on the society section of ABC 7 news in my area. I'm confused, is it because it's seen as a suicide over a murder? I just find it weird that it's not making waves.
    Last edited by Darkspellmaster; 06-12-2020 at 10:11 PM.

  4. #3874
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Whoopie Goldburg made a really good point on having introductions to some of the Disney movies, like Song of the South and Peter Pan (Redman song), to better educated people about the era and also to show both the positive and negative aspects of the movies. Could the same be done for Faulty Towers
    Yes. Exactly. Trying to pretend that these shows never existed solves nothing. We have to talk about them when they come up instead of sweeping them under the carpet.
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  5. #3875
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Yes. Exactly. Trying to pretend that these shows never existed solves nothing. We have to talk about them when they come up instead of sweeping them under the carpet.
    On that...

    Why stop at just episodes?

    Based on just some of what Walt Disney did, ain't there a case for just stomping the entire thing right down to the bricks?(assuming that you are someone who believes in wiping out that sort of history...)

  6. #3876
    Paranoid Android ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Well, as a Historian (one of my undergraduate disciplines) I have mixed feelings about removing monuments of any sort. On the one hand, I get where you are coming from. On the other hand, because the Ancient Egyptians (for example) often destroyed their monuments and associated records (due to certain bad rulers later generations despised) our picture of Middle Eastern History is very incomplete including the probable (from what we have pieced together) true dark origins of monotheistic religion.
    They aren't ancient antiquities. The majority of the monuments have only existed since the 1960's.
    The hateful period of time they celebrate was very well documented and is in no danger of being lost or forgotten.
    They are monuments to the wrong side of history and if anything represent a false narrative.
    The only people who will miss them are racists and their enablers.
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  7. #3877
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    The comparison to ancient Egypt is pointless because ancient Egyptians did not have terabytes of history books uploaded to cloud servers yet. That far back in history, statues and wall decorations are basically the only info we have. And those were hardly peer reviewed.
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  8. #3878
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Update to the ongoing "the cruelty is the point" theme of the Trump junta:

    Customs and Border Protection used money meant for food and medicine on dirt bikes and ATVs, says GAO


    Some children went hungry and possibly died so those guys could feel like Mad Max. But I thought all lives mattered?
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

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  9. #3879
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    On, and a rare instance of Trump blinking:

    While he will still be held on the site of a racial massacre in the middle of a pandemic, he moved to from Juneteenth to June 20th.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

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  10. #3880
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    A Whirlpool plant in Tulsa, Oklahoma has temporarily closed due to a coronavirus outbreak one week before Trump holds a rally in the city.

    And Tulsa County now has its highest seven-day average of coronavirus cases since the outbreak began in March.

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/c...243485396.html
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

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  11. #3881
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Oh, and Beijing is increasing restrictions again after new cases of Coronavirus. They are admitting 7, but everybody knows they would not postponed a planned reopening of schools if it were really just 7.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  12. #3882
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Striking LGBT protections on the anniversary of the Pulse massacre, scheduling a 'race speech' for Juneteenth in Tulsa.

    You can't be naive enough to think they don't know exactly what they're doing, even if they blink.

  13. #3883
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    The comparison to ancient Egypt is pointless because ancient Egyptians did not have terabytes of history books uploaded to cloud servers yet. That far back in history, statues and wall decorations are basically the only info we have. And those were hardly peer reviewed.
    If people were as concerned about ending racism and bigotry as they are about "preserving it" then we wouldn't have this problem to begin with.

    It's obvious that many of them don't understand how others feel when they experience seeing these images on screen and in "monuments" to history.

    Easy to say something should be preserved when it demeans and dehumanizes others -- like people telling me I shouldn't have a problem hearing the n-word repeated in class or reading stereotypical "black" behavior and dialogue in books and movies written by white people who only have a cursory view of the problem at hand because it's "history" instead of reading books by African, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, and Native Americans that tell the story from the perspective of those who have dealt with these problems firsthand and have nothing to gain by glossing over the horrors of reality.

    Better to replace these monuments to our storied history with media that focuses on progress and the truth -- monuments to abolitionists and people who fought against racism and bigotry and books and stories written by those who were oppressed -- so we can get the real story regarding "history" rather than an often romanticzied ("Gone With the Wind") and whitewashed ("Birth of a Nation") version of that same history.

    Gandhi said racist things about Africans -- does that mean his work should be ignored? No -- but it does mean that Africans have every right to tear down his statue in Africa if they so choose and the same applies to any society that finds it's "icons" out of step with where it seeks to go in the future.

    No one should have to lionize their oppressor nor anyone whose views they find immoral.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-13-2020 at 02:22 AM.

  14. #3884
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Yes. Exactly. Trying to pretend that these shows never existed solves nothing. We have to talk about them when they come up instead of sweeping them under the carpet.
    And by understanding things about the works we can find a way to understand that while there are things we need to see as something that can feel demeaning to others theres benefits to some of the interesting aspects about the art of it. For Song it's the blending of 2D animation with live action. For Fawlty towers it's the art of comedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    On that...

    Why stop at just episodes?

    Based on just some of what Walt Disney did, ain't there a case for just stomping the entire thing right down to the bricks?(assuming that you are someone who believes in wiping out that sort of history...)
    What he did? You mean the strike? Or the BS urban legends about him? There's no reason to stomp it to the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    The comparison to ancient Egypt is pointless because ancient Egyptians did not have terabytes of history books uploaded to cloud servers yet. That far back in history, statues and wall decorations are basically the only info we have. And those were hardly peer reviewed.
    We would of had more if:

    1. The former Pharaohs didnt partake in the removal of names of predecessors they didnt like , or destroy works about them.

    2. Library of Alexandria was still standing. That was the closest thing to a cloud server back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Oh, and Beijing is increasing restrictions again after new cases of Coronavirus. They are admitting 7, but everybody knows they would not postponed a planned reopening of schools if it were really just 7.
    So new form or just the old one still needing to hit people it didnt hit before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Striking LGBT protections on the anniversary of the Pulse massacre, scheduling a 'race speech' for Juneteenth in Tulsa.

    You can't be naive enough to think they don't know exactly what they're doing, even if they blink.
    The man is just plain sick. And I just love that he's adding a don't sue us clause to his rally. Ugh.

  15. #3885
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    "After His Op-Ed Got ‘Gone With The Wind’ Pulled From HBO Max, John Ridley Ponders Permanent Hollywood Change"

    [JOHN] RIDLEY: I’m genuinely proud of 12 Years a Slave, American Crime, Red Tails, Guerrilla, Let It Fall, and I am happy they’re re-airing that next week. But honestly, what has come out of that [op-ed] piece, if I really had anything to do with it, at all, I never would’ve thought that would be the most impactful thing that I’ve ever written to this point in my career.

    DEADLINE: It is historic, seeing the reassessment of Gone With The Wind as anything other than a period Hollywood classic film that got 15 Oscar noms and won 10 including Best Picture and Best Supporting Actress for Hattie McDaniel, the first time a black actor won an Oscar…

    RIDLEY: Yeah, it is. I’m so proud of all that other work, but it’s not for everyone. Not everyone watched them. But this has really been part of so many discussions. People like my son have been out there on the front lines, fighting for real change. So, I put what went on here in context, but when people in high positions at corporations are all going through their portfolios and saying, look, are we doing all that we can? Are we at least trying to create proper environments? It’s remarkable how many things are changing and the swiftness, and I don’t think it’s knee-jerk changes. I think people right now are going, business as usual doesn’t cut it.

    DEADLINE: When HBO Max shelved Gone With The Wind, I recalled in a college film class watching D.W. Griffith’s The Birth of a Nation and responding to an appalling celebration of the KKK. Spike Lee used imagery from that film so well in BlacKkKlansman. I remember the Nazi propaganda films of Leni Riefenstahl that ruined her post-WWII career. To me, these films need to exist as cautionary tales of what happens when talented artists find themselves on the wrong side of history because they served up propaganda. What do you think the lasting impression will be on the memory of Gone With The Wind after recent events?

    RIDLEY: Well, I agree with you. I hope that there will be context around it, now. Some people may just continue to watch the film because as a film, in the various artists and crafts, it is an achievement, and the performances are good. If it wasn’t good in some fashion, if it didn’t distract with shiny objects, it would’ve been pulled long ago. I might not be able to watch it, but some people can. That’s fine, but bigger conversations need to be had around it, about the managed rehabilitation of what the Confederacy was and how that was used in some ways to buttress segregation and Jim Crow.

    To this day, there are people able to say, “Well, it was heritage, not hate, and, you know people fought with honor, and there were good people on both sides.” These folks were traitorous. It was a traitorous cause. I read in another article, that when you look historically at Hollywood Civil War films, that up until Glory, it’s really hard to find one that really told the story from the Union side.


    And there are so many films through history, whether it was Died with Their Boots On, Gone With the Wind, Song of the South, which is sort of slightly post-antebellum, but which deal with either slavery or indentured servitude of sharecropping, whatever Uncle Remus was doing…and put a hazy, gauzy glow around the Confederate side.

    As opposed to getting into it either from an objective point of view or from the side of the Union, and here’s what the Union was fighting for, and here’s what it was all about, and a lot of that was because these were efforts to rehabilitate the South. Because the film industry wanted to placate the South, the way that many people right now might feel that some films have to be adjusted for certain international markets to not upset and make sure that there’s revenue.

    So, I agree with you. I think just as artists, we should look at it and really ask ourselves, does this work? I can say this as somebody who’s been fortunate enough to get one, but receiving an Oscar doesn’t make your work great. What makes your work great is if it can stand up to comparisons, if it can stand up to the test of time, if it can stand up to context.

    No, I don’t believe that no one should ever be allowed to see Gone With the Wind again. Let it exist, but with even a slight bumper up front that might make for deeper conversations. Let us study it. Let us understand what was wrong about it, what did work in it. I’d love to know more about Hattie McDaniel. So many people are bemoaning [that the controversy diminishes her achievement], but they have no idea about her career, what she did, what she suffered through. So don’t just hold that up, that she was the first woman of color to win an award. What did that mean for her? What else was going on in her life? How did Hollywood step up after that?

    DEADLINE: Was it just viewed as an anomaly as opposed to an important moment for the industry and an important step in the trajectory of a fine actress?

    RIDLEY: I would agree with that. It’s like my wife just said to me, there are better ways for Hollywood and the world to honor her legacy than merely keeping this movie up.

    DEADLINE: We mentioned discarding polarizing remnants of the Antebellum South, and NASCAR’s decision to eradicate the Confederate flag. It seems like important things are happening, after the murder of George Floyd and subsequent protests. But what did you make of President Donald Trump’s quick reaction that he would not allow the change of military bases named after Confederate leaders, and how much meaningful change will come as a result of this moment? You’ve written some powerful movies that have made people self-examine, but I don’t recall much changing as a result of them.

    RIDLEY: These movements have fits and starts; they move at different speeds. They’re modulated in different ways. Moments that we think are historic, we look back on, and it wasn’t as big a moment as maybe we had hoped. This country is built on progress, though. We are moving towards a better place, and that is because our lot as Americans is to continually reexamine ourselves, reexamine our society, to move forward. The opportunities I’ve gotten in Hollywood? Compare that to people who came before me, and never really had any kind of a chance. That speaks to progress.

    So, I believe there are going to be changes, but some will be cosmetic. Just speaking of Gone With the Wind, will that bumper they put on the film make a big difference down the road? Maybe not, but when you look at the demographics of people who are out there on the streets, when you look at the numbers of individuals who, a month prior, may have been at best agnostic about race relations in America, or polls that said that white people feel like they’re more marginalized than black people…people are recognizing things in this moment.

    I certainly don’t want to compare moments or compare tragedies. But we saw after Parkland a trajectory that was different than these other mass shootings that were happening on a regular basis. You can clearly see with the #MeToo movement that women, female voices, were heard in a different way. You can talk to a lot of women, and they will tell you it’s not enough. You can talk to a lot of young people who say they’re still scared at schools. I hate to say it, there will be other school shootings, but you can see that we are moving forward, and people are more engaged.

    NASCAR taking down that flag, I don’t know what that’s going to really change in all of society, but think about NASCAR trying to make that move. When you and I were talking previously in March, there’s no way that was contemplated. There are going to be people who are upset, but you see, largely, a lot of people are just like, okay. If people were going to be agnostic and silent, I’d rather them be silent to positive change rather than ignorant of all the negativity that is pervasive in these systemic areas. So, I agree. Maybe the changes won’t be big. Maybe they won’t be long-lasting, but change is change.



    Progress is progress."

    https://deadline.com/2020/06/john-ri...ll-1202957988/
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-13-2020 at 02:41 AM.

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