All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

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There is nothing dehumanizing about recognizing that we are all the same and should all be treated with respect...

Umm but the Planet of the Apes is about humans... and Apes. Extending our humanity to other species based on a fictional assumption of category reversal whereby respect is placed above the very category that defines it - human.
But back to your universalism and misplacing where it meets reality of groups that are materially unequal. Who is the arbiter of that equality? Our equality of opportunity ends at the border seems fair to both sides. You still don't address humanity of those that have to shoulder the burden of those other humans that want more than equal rights from the US.

[Farealmer]

Fabrication or your interpretation as the look on his face is nothing like that or PwrdOn's race baiting litho. It seems more the case of fabrication as punishment is your equal exaggeration. Deterrence is not the same as punishment same as a wall is not whip.

That wasn't an answer to my question. Call it deterrence if punishment is too loaded for you. What should the USA do to prevent people from having the attitude you think the person in the pic has when entering this country illegally?

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The details of the policy don't matter as much as the results in practice though. While Irish culture was suppressed under British rule, they did retain a distinctive identity that continues to the present day, and Ireland remains a cultural powerhouse far out of proportion to its size and population. Meanwhile, Irish-Americans are almost entirely assimilated into the mainstream, no one aside from a tiny handful of language nerds has any inkling of how to speak Gaelic, and the general conception of Irish culture doesn't go far beyond drinking, loose women, and fighting leprechauns. So who are the real victims here, the supposedly perpetually oppressed Irish, or the economically powerful but culturally bankrupt Irish-Americans?



If cheap labor was the goal, then bringing in European workers wouldn't be any more cost effective in the 19th century than in the 16th, when hiring white laborers was so ruinously expensive for plantation owners that they turned to slavery as a cheaper alternative. By the late 1800s, there were plenty of newly freed blacks looking to move to northern industrial towns to find work, and an endless supply of Mexican workers from just across the border to do all manner of dirty jobs out west. Of course, the cheapest source of labor came from China, and in fact they were paid so little that eventually a law was passed specifically barring the Chinese from entering the country, which wasn't repealed until 1943 and large scale immigration from China did not really resume until the 1990s.

And it's not like European immigrants had any kind of cultural affinity to America that would help them assimilate into society more easily either. Most of them came from poor, agrarian societies on the fringes of the continent and didn't have any skills that translated particularly well to the burgeoning industrial economy of the US. Most also did not speak English, stuck to their own immigrant enclaves, and generally avoided any interaction with "native" Americans, as assimilation was usually a slow, generational process. The ONLY reason this migration was tolerated was because the race-obsessed America of the 19th century insisted on bringing in as many Europeans as possible in order to maintain a white majority nation and prevent the country from being overwhelmed by the "alien races" who populate most of the Western hemisphere.

More ahistorism, slavery, according to classic Marxist analysis, is replaced by wage labor in order to accommodate the mobility issue of labor so we see the attempt to old systems of capital try to retain landed labor while new ones are hindered by it.
You underscore this mobility as landed labor fled to its new wage bondage and in cities and eventually hopes of land ownership in America. Protectionism rears its head just at that point because it is a unmanaged process and the vestiges of racism are the easiest means at hand to define populations for exclusion. Point by point, yes Mexico, then as now, was a source but again an unmanageable one which Capitalism demands to control the cost of labor. African Americans couldn't just up and leave their lands even though many did and the Chinese were excluded by law and limited by not just by race but by gender.

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That wasn't an answer to my question. Call it deterrence if punishment is too loaded for you. What should the USA do to prevent people from having the attitude you think the person in the pic has when entering this country illegally?

Ending the rhetoric that this is still an open country that welcomes cheap labor and better internal enforcement against non-citizen labor by employers. Transmitting that along with serious law enforcement that puts aside 'catch and release' procedures.
ICE raids on meat processing plants... Kids in cages wouldn't be the last resort if people had hope of turning their own countries into something more than blankholes for them to grow up in.

[PwrdOn]

More ahistorism, slavery, according to classic Marxist analysis, is replaced by wage labor in order to accommodate the mobility issue of labor so we see the attempt to old systems of capital try to retain landed labor while new ones are hindered by it.
You underscore this mobility as landed labor fled to its new wage bondage and in cities and eventually hopes of land ownership in America. Protectionism rears its head just at that point because it is a unmanaged process and the vestiges of racism are the easiest means at hand to define populations for exclusion. Point by point, yes Mexico, then as now, was a source but again an unmanageable one which Capitalism demands to control the cost of labor. African Americans couldn't just up and leave their lands even though many did and the Chinese were excluded by law and limited by not just by race but by gender.

How does this not just support my point exactly? Americans wanted cheap labor to fuel growing industries, but also wanted to retain a white majority because of course they did, and so invented all kinds of justifications for why mass migration from Europe should be encouraged, while immigration from elsewhere would be discouraged or barred, even if these workers represented a much cheaper option to fill the gaps in the labor force than relatively high wage Europeans. Things haven't really changed much to the present day, except that now most of the push factors driving emigration from Europe are gone now, and white people are mostly happy to stay put where they are. But even if they were not, I'd still have a hard time picturing the border patrol riding down a group of poor, starving Norwegians on horseback. The existence of America as a white majority nation on a decidedly non-white hemisphere is an entirely artificial construct that was sustained only by openly racist immigration laws, and the historical facts aren't really in dispute. Who knows what the country would look like if the immigration rules had been fair from the beginning, but it certainly wouldn't look anything like it does now.

And you would really have to strain yourself to try and argue that America doesn't need any more workers, because in the current state of affairs, immigrants are needed to fill jobs both at the low end and high end of the job market. By and large, American-born workers, particularly whites, are unwilling to do menial jobs regardless of pay, and because of our shoddy education system, are not really all that competitive in high skill, high tech fields either. Indeed, the main contribution that "real Americans" make to the economy these days is through their excessive spending habits compared to immigrants, who are famously stingy and typically save most of their money to send to family back home. Even if you somehow managed to stabilize the birth rates and implemented enough border security to essentially bar any new entrants, the future of white America would still be rather bleak because it would quickly devolve into a nation of people who are too soft to do manual labor, and too dumb to work in advanced fields, slowly but surely frittering away the vast pile of wealth that their ancestors accumulated through genocide, slavery, and exploitation, leaving future generations with nothing to show for all of it.

[Jack Dracula]

They're not acting bestial...they're just people...desperate people looking for some place better to live, sure, but people none the less and certainly none the less deserving of being treated humanly due to their desperation. And that's a pretty basic tenet of supposed "cultured" society, that we realize those people over there though different than we are in some surface details are none the less actually no different than we are and should be treated accordingly.

But hey, if you're not a fan of the basics of humanity then you do you man...

I still maintain the main difference between Conservatives and Progressives is a lack of empathy to some degree on the Conservatives part. It seems to be a prerequisite.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

I still maintain the main difference between Conservatives and Progressives is a lack of empathy to some degree on the Conservatives part. It seems to be a prerequisite.

In other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

[kidfresh512]

I still maintain the main difference between Conservatives and Progressives is a lack of empathy to some degree on the Conservatives part. It seems to be a prerequisite.

There is also the hypocrisy they lean on in claiming their tax dollars go to support basic humanity. Healthcare, education, making sure people can make a decent living wage. But, they don't give a **** we waste trillions on military and walls, and tax cuts for the rich which many of those same people are not apart of.

They cling to this idea that every immigrant is someone they will have to end up supporting forever. It is just racism that keeps GOP from embracing policies and reaching out to these people who just want to feed their families, educate their kids, escape terrible conditions back home. There is no reason that these people once they become eligible to vote as American citizens eventually if they wish that they have to be Democrats as some GOP reps suggest. They GOP just offer nothing and treat them as "invaders" until they need their yards cut, or homes built and painted or offices cleaned.

[PwrdOn]

There is also the hypocrisy they lean on in claiming their tax dollars go to support basic humanity. Healthcare, education, making sure people can make a decent living wage. But, they don't give a **** we waste trillions on military and walls, and tax cuts for the rich which many of those same people are not apart of.

They cling to this idea that every immigrant is someone they will have to end up supporting forever. It is just racism that keeps GOP from embracing policies and reaching out to these people who just want to feed their families, educate their kids, escape terrible conditions back home. There is no reason that these people once they become eligible to vote as American citizens eventually if they wish that they have to be Democrats as some GOP reps suggest. They GOP just offer nothing and treat them as "invaders" until they need their yards cut, or homes built and painted or offices cleaned.

Conservative ideology has always been founded on this inexplicable belief that the people at the bottom of the social hierarchy are mere drones with no hopes and dreams of their own who are happy to be ordered around to perform whatever menial tasks, and then summarily disposed of once they cease to be useful. And despite being contradicted by reality time and time again, they continue to insist that the peasants know their place and act against their own interests, and act all shocked and appalled when they refuse to.

[Xheight]

Conservative ideology has always been founded on this inexplicable belief that the people at the bottom of the social hierarchy are mere drones with no hopes and dreams of their own who are happy to be ordered around to perform whatever menial tasks, and then summarily disposed of once they cease to be useful. And despite being contradicted by reality time and time again, they continue to insist that the peasants know their place and act against their own interests, and act all shocked and appalled when they refuse to.

so how is it that some of the staunchest conservative immigrants are those from socialist countries, Cubans, Koreans, .... regimes that have asked them to dwell in their proletarian class and just work.

[PwrdOn]

so how is it that some of the staunchest conservative immigrants are those from socialist countries, Cubans, Koreans, .... regimes that have asked them to dwell in their proletarian class and just work.

Ponder this broski - most of those immigrants were part of the ruling classes in those countries before the socialists took over and expropriated all of their wealth. And if there's one thing that a "gentleman" absolutely can't stand, it's being asked to roll up his sleeves and toil like some peasant. Better to claim to be oppressed by cruel dictators and flee to a place where opportunities for passive income and rent extraction are still plentiful.

[AnakinFlair]

In happier(?) news, the Space Force has announced their new uniforms. It went about as well as you would think.

[Kirby101]

so how is it that some of the staunchest conservative immigrants are those from socialist countries, Cubans, Koreans, .... regimes that have asked them to dwell in their proletarian class and just work.

Still equating the Communism of Cuba or N Korea with the Social Democracies of Europe or Japan or S Korea. Right Wingers never accept what progressivism really is. They need their Stalinist boogeymen.

[PwrdOn]

Still equating the Communism of Cuba or N Korea with the Social Democracies of Europe or Japan or S Korea. Right Wingers never accept what progressivism really is. They need their Stalinist boogeymen.

Bruh, on what fucking planet are Japan or South Korea "progressive social democracies"?

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How does this not just support my point exactly? Americans wanted cheap labor to fuel growing industries, but also wanted to retain a white majority because of course they did, and so invented all kinds of justifications for why mass migration from Europe should be encouraged, while immigration from elsewhere would be discouraged or barred, even if these workers represented a much cheaper option to fill the gaps in the labor force than relatively high wage Europeans. Things haven't really changed much to the present day, except that now most of the push factors driving emigration from Europe are gone now, and white people are mostly happy to stay put where they are. But even if they were not, I'd still have a hard time picturing the border patrol riding down a group of poor, starving Norwegians on horseback. The existence of America as a white majority nation on a decidedly non-white hemisphere is an entirely artificial construct that was sustained only by openly racist immigration laws, and the historical facts aren't really in dispute. Who knows what the country would look like if the immigration rules had been fair from the beginning, but it certainly wouldn't look anything like it does now.

And you would really have to strain yourself to try and argue that America doesn't need any more workers, because in the current state of affairs, immigrants are needed to fill jobs both at the low end and high end of the job market. By and large, American-born workers, particularly whites, are unwilling to do menial jobs regardless of pay, and because of our shoddy education system, are not really all that competitive in high skill, high tech fields either. Indeed, the main contribution that "real Americans" make to the economy these days is through their excessive spending habits compared to immigrants, who are famously stingy and typically save most of their money to send to family back home. Even if you somehow managed to stabilize the birth rates and implemented enough border security to essentially bar any new entrants, the future of white America would still be rather bleak because it would quickly devolve into a nation of people who are too soft to do manual labor, and too dumb to work in advanced fields, slowly but surely frittering away the vast pile of wealth that their ancestors accumulated through genocide, slavery, and exploitation, leaving future generations with nothing to show for all of it.

Well if you missed my point then you did by missing the importance of MANAGING immigration and populations of any color or ethnicity which Ellis island and control points today use to direct populations to the work centers and demand like tech visas. It has always been the case that treating someone that doesn't look or sound like you as an other is easier but that doesn't make it primary to the economic imperatives of the labor pools available and by way of contradistinction we have Brazil which didn't enjoy a emigration boom the way that Argentina did to drive a situation like that in US where europeans where the available pool in numbers.

Apart from your prejudicial statements about "white" workers in the US you are throwing the same kind of rhetoric that was used against nativists at the turn of the 19th century break unions as lazy entitleds that won't work the way ethnics entering could.
The difference is of course time and the industries which does not demand the same kind of work force it once did. If one looks at insular countries with low immigration or high barriers one doesn't find decline or stagnation as Japan, Australia, Singapore. we should be cautioned about the just what kind of industry is being propped up in a changing economy that is holding on to old patterns not unlike the slave holders of the past. A shoddy education system is an effect not a cause in a country unconcerned about producing tech workers when even those come cheaper than homegrown ones. Just what are those Yellow vests so upset about in France for example? Africans taking their jobs? Not really, suppressing middle and working class wages gained by collective action is more the case due to a flood of social support and low wage workers.