1. #18256
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    So if Mitch is still in control of the Senate, you are fine with doing nothing about student debt. Because he will not allow any bill to move forward.
    And it wasn't the "progressive administrators" who did this. It was a policy starting with Reagan to move the cost of higher education from the State to the students.
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    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    The argument that making things better is disrespectful to those who didn't have the improvement in their time is one of the dumbest I have herd, sorry.

    It would stop all and any progress.

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  3. #18258
    Incredible Member 4saken1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    And he's going to start a 2024 campaign ASAP to keep the grift going. He will be able to spend all that on his travel and food expenses, under the guise of it being "campaign expenses".
    OH, SNAP! I didn't even think of that angle! I was thinking that this move was more about Trump knowing how leery Democrats would likely be to prosecute an active political opponent in criminal court, as Trump ironically claims that this is what dictators do.
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  4. #18259
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Trump has skated by for way too long. When he had the billion dollar debt after the collapse of his casinos, airline, etc. the banks still gave him an allowance to live on. They bought into the fabricated image of Trump the Great Businessman but it was all a house of cards. I do know I've read that his Trump building in Chicago had a 240 million debt forgiven. I'm sure the financiers think that he is good for it but that's how the rich get away with things. The lower floors with retail space was never fully occupied. I walked by there once when I went to Chicago for C2E2 one years and staying at a hotel on the other side of the Chicago River. There was nothing there on the ground floor and no signage for shops.
    I recall a quote someone attributed to Trump. Something like "It's better to be $400,000,000 in debt to a bank than $400,000 because the bank is much more motivated to keep you from defaulting." Probably not accurate but you get the gist.
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  5. #18260
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I admit I was being a little generous...I think some were paid perhaps towards the beginning. I just haven't checked to see. And yeah, I always thought most places at least ask for a hefty security deposit. They have to cover for the insurances expenses at least. Dumb on them for assuming Trump would pay up.



    Trump has skated by for way too long. When he had the billion dollar debt after the collapse of his casinos, airline, etc. the banks still gave him an allowance to live on. They bought into the fabricated image of Trump the Great Businessman but it was all a house of cards. I do know I've read that his Trump building in Chicago had a 240 million debt forgiven. I'm sure the financiers think that he is good for it but that's how the rich get away with things. The lower floors with retail space was never fully occupied. I walked by there once when I went to Chicago for C2E2 one years and staying at a hotel on the other side of the Chicago River. There was nothing there on the ground floor and no signage for shops.
    I have a similar story. Three years ago, my g/f and I attended the Anime Next convention in Atlantic City. We stayed at Bally's and from our window, we could see the Taj Mahal across the boardwalk. Of course, it used to be the Trump Taj Mahal, but after Trump bankrupted the casino, part of the deal was to take his name off the hotel. But you could still see the empty space above the Taj Mahal logo where Trump's name used to be.
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  6. #18261
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Ah, so this is the one time that a Republican doesn't want to reward the wealthy? Someone call the Washington Times!

    Student debt loans have obscene interest rates. I know, I work in the field.

    And I see a big disconnect with people who say that we shouldn't provide relief now because of people who were able to pay their loans off. Should I not take the Covid vaccine because of the 266K people who died because of it?
    I'm generally not in favor of giving the wealthy money, or forgiving their debts.

    The COVID comparison isn't a great one. Everyone is going to benefit from a vaccine. Distributing a vaccine isn't going to create perverse incentives going forward.

    Student debt comes down to personal choice. Generally, someone either made a bad investment, or they were misled by a corrupt university. In these cases, the people and institutions who screwed up should not be rewarded.
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  7. #18262
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    I recall a quote someone attributed to Trump. Something like "It's better to be $400,000,000 in debt to a bank than $400,000 because the bank is much more motivated to keep you from defaulting." Probably not accurate but you get the gist.
    Not far off. The version I have read is "Owe someone a million and they own you. Owe someone a billion and you own them." Basically at those amounts the debt becomes a hostage - with the threat of default being the gun against the hostages head.
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  8. #18263
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    The argument that making things better is disrespectful to those who didn't have the improvement in their time is one of the dumbest I have herd, sorry.

    It would stop all and any progress.

    "You retired before the 40 hour work week became the norm? You must be so angry!"
    Right. They might as well argue that we shouldn't have national health care because it's disrespectful to all the people who had to make sacrifices to pay for their health care.
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  9. #18264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm generally not in favor of giving the wealthy money, or forgiving their debts.

    The COVID comparison isn't a great one. Everyone is going to benefit from a vaccine. Distributing a vaccine isn't going to create perverse incentives going forward.

    Student debt comes down to personal choice. Generally, someone either made a bad investment, or they were misled by a corrupt university. In these cases, the people and institutions who screwed up should not be rewarded.
    I'd argue the culprit is skyrocketing tuition. Education shouldn't be expensive.

  10. #18265
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
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    I don't think having my student loan debt wiped out is something I'm entitled to, but at the same time you're not going to hear me arguing against the possibility of that outcome.

    I'll say this: I am working a job that I love right now, in education, and I make a little over 40k a year. I know plenty of blue-collar workers, particularly in construction, that make as much or more than that. I love my job, it allows me to lead a pretty comfortable life, so I'm unlikely to drastically shift careers. The best advancement I can expect in my salary is if, by completing a Master's degree, accruing yet more debt and waiting a couple of years to gain experience, I can achieve 60-70k per year. But if I did that, my student loan debt would be sitting at around 150k. It's absurd.
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  11. #18266
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Chuck Schumer and Elizabeth Warren have suggested that Joe Biden should use an executive order to forgive college debt. This goes beyond earlier Democratic plans, in which there were promises to erase student debt, but the idea was that Congress should pass a bill first.

    https://www.newsday.com/long-island/...cel-1.50074101

    I'm curious about what the opinions about this are. I'm sure no one will be surprised that I would consider the idea of blanket forgiveness of student loans to be a spectacularly bad policy.

    It makes suckers of the people who paid their bills on time, and made sacrifices to take care of their financial obligations.

    It's an expensive giveaway to people who are disproportionately likely to earn higher levels of income.

    It rewards universities (which tend to have progressive administrators and staff) for bad practices, when they're the ones who have failed the students.

    The entire conversation about potential debt forgiveness will discourage people for paying off their debts. Even if Biden does nothing, why bother paying anything but the bare minimum if President Kamala Harris or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will forgive your debt in ten years?
    At the very least, I think the interest should be eradicated so those who owe the most will have a chance of actually paying the debt off.

    Now realistically, you know it isn't as though the government is going to mark a day on the calendar when everyone with college debt is suddenly free.
    It would likely be on a case-by-case basis with debtors applying for a chance to have their particular situation reviewed and if necessary, a portion of the debt forgiven.
    Of course, the entire program would likely skew in favor of the loan companies. That's where the legislation would likely end up after being negotiated to death in the House and Senate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Not far off. The version I have read is "Owe someone a million and they own you. Owe someone a billion and you own them." Basically at those amounts the debt becomes a hostage - with the threat of default being the gun against the hostages head.
    Yes, that sounds right.
    Last edited by ChadH; 11-29-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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  12. #18267
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4saken1 View Post
    OH, SNAP! I didn't even think of that angle! I was thinking that this move was more about Trump knowing how leery Democrats would likely be to prosecute an active political opponent in criminal court, as Trump ironically claims that this is what dictators do.
    It's probably about both, as well as ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    The argument that making things better is disrespectful to those who didn't have the improvement in their time is one of the dumbest I have herd, sorry.

    It would stop all and any progress.

    "You retired before the 40 hour work week became the norm? You must be so angry!"
    With the forty hour workweek, everyone who was working during the same time was treated the same.

    With a cancellation of debt, someone who went to college ten years ago and did the right thing (paid off as much of their debt as possible) gets less than a classmate who did the wrong thing (delayed paying off their debt.) It's punishing people who acted responsibly.

    It's also a signal to people who owe student loans to put off paying for it as long as possible because an executive order might eliminate much of the debt.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  13. #18268
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    At the very least, I think the interest should be eradicated so those who owe the most will have a chance of actually paying the debt off.

    Now realistically, you know it isn't as though the government is going to mark a day on the calendar when everyone with college debt is suddenly free.
    It would likely be on a case-by-case basis with debtors applying for a chance to have their particular situation reviewed and if necessary, a portion of the debt forgiven.
    Of course, the entire program would likely skew in favor of the loan companies. That's where the legislation would likely end up after being negotiated to death in the House and Senate.
    Issuing an executive order clearing debt associated with any university that went defunct before issuing a degree shouldn't be controversial. Services not rendered, payment not required. I have no sympathy for the current debt owners, since most of those who buy debts are basically vultures, minus the value to the ecosystem real vultures provide.
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  14. #18269
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I don't think having my student loan debt wiped out is something I'm entitled to, but at the same time you're not going to hear me arguing against the possibility of that outcome.

    I'll say this: I am working a job that I love right now, in education, and I make a little over 40k a year. I know plenty of blue-collar workers, particularly in construction, that make as much or more than that. I love my job, it allows me to lead a pretty comfortable life, so I'm unlikely to drastically shift careers. The best advancement I can expect in my salary is if, by completing a Master's degree, accruing yet more debt and waiting a couple of years to gain experience, I can achieve 60-70k per year. But if I did that, my student loan debt would be sitting at around 150k. It's absurd.
    I can appreciate that.

    There are all sorts of tradeoffs. There is also a bit of a class element, in the idea that student debt would be repaid for college students, but that blue-collar workers won't be compensated for the professional investments they made (IE- the purchase of a truck.)

    There can also be a system where public sector employees get some money back, instead of blanket forgiveness.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    At the very least, I think the interest should be eradicated so those who owe the most will have a chance of actually paying the debt off.

    Now realistically, you know it isn't as though the government is going to mark a day on the calendar when everyone with college debt is suddenly free.
    It would likely be on a case-by-case basis with debtors applying for a chance to have their particular situation reviewed and if necessary, a portion of the debt forgiven.
    Of course, the entire program would likely skew in favor of the loan companies. That's where the legislation would likely end up after being negotiated to death in the House and Senate.
    As far as I can tell, a man who wants to be Senate Majority Leader has encouraged the President-Elect to forgive all students $50,000 of student debt through an executive order.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/16/schu...ive-order.html

    I get that this is unlikely to happen, but I am taking his comments seriously. Senate Democrats have decided that this guy should be their leader.

    Elizabeth Warren is also well-regarded by Democrats.

    It's certainly possible that they don't think their plan will go though, but it sends a bad signal to the people who don't know better, that they should put off paying their debts.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #18270
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I'd argue the culprit is skyrocketing tuition. Education shouldn't be expensive.
    This gets into the question of why colleges are so expensive.

    One of the major problems is that there's no incentive to cut spending.

    One of the major reasons things are so expensive is administrative bloat, the rise in the number of paid managers.

    https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazi...te-my-tuition/

    The economist Thomas Sowell described how colleges are not incentivized to cut costs, thanks to the government subsidizing it, and legislation adding requirements to colleges that aren't important to the quality of the education.

    http://leeconomics.com/Sowell-Econom...tml#Part%20III

    The University of Colorado law school had its accreditation by the American Bar Association put in jeopardy simply because they did not spend enough money on books for their law library — even though their students passed the bar exam on the first try at a higher rate than the law students at Harvard and Yale.

    The criteria used by most accrediting agencies are based on inputs — essentially spending — rather than results for students.

    Competition among academic institutions therefore seldom takes the form of lowering their costs of operation, in order to lower tuition. The incentives are all the other way.

    Competition often takes the form of offering more upscale amenities — posh lounges, bowling alleys, wi-fi, finer dorms.

    None of this means better education. But, so long as the customers keep buying it — with government help — the colleges will keep selling it.
    The Washington Post had a ten part series a few years back on rising college costs, and a big part of it is unnecessary spending.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...g/?arc404=true
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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