1. #18316
    Boisterously Confused
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,040

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    For him, of course. He isn't smart enough to think beyond his own base needs and wants. The problem is, those who have bound themselves to him, those who drink up every word, every tweet, are they going to quietly forget? Or are they going to be simmering pots of Trump Soup just waiting to boiling over or explode? Grudges like this don't go away easily.

    Difference is, in 1918 Germany was the 'loser' and the Germans refused to accept it. In 2020, it's Trump who is the loser, not the U.S.

    So it depends on if people who supported Trump, who voted for him, believe that they were wronged or do they just believe that Trump was wronged? If it's just Trump, then this might die down eventually. But if they self identify with Trump, if they conflate Trump with the county, if patriotism becomes synonymous with supporting Trump in their minds, then yes, we could be in for a whole lot of trouble down the road.
    That scenario frightens me more than any other. A competent opportunist declaring he'll "right the Injustice," and The Trumpsters enabling his power grab until his grip is unassailable. IMO, It becomes much more likely if Trump were to die in the next couple of years

  2. #18317
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    2,926

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The problem with this scenario is that people who were irresponsible are getting the benefit compared to people who made sacrifices to pay off their debt.

    If this outlook were a unique problem to modern conservatism, there would have been a time in the recent past when government typically paid people's debts.

    I certainly agree with the concern that if we made a habit of paying debts, colleges would gouge taxpayers.

    As for higher earnings going to taxes, that happens no matter what. There is a tax deduction for interest on student loans, but that's not enough to make up for the cost of the government paying it off.

    My opinions on the recent tax bill are a bit more nuanced, so you're basing an impression about my views on a caricature.

    But what I think about a different topic is irrelevant to the question of whether a blanket erasure of student loans is right. We know that you didn't support the tax giveaway, so any argument in its favor is not going to be persuasive to you.

    Presumably you have the same opinion in any situation in which anyone's feelings are hurt.

    I don't think I've really addressed the political implications of hurt feelings before.

    If someone works 2,000 hours over three years to pay off their college debt, and someone else who went to the same school at the same time has their debt erased by the government, the person who worked much harder for several years doing something that should be encouraged (paying off debt) should have the right to be upset.

    When it comes to hurt feelings, the reason someone is hurt matters.

    If someone's feelings are hurt by a racist or homophobic slur, that might merit some kind of punishment for the other party.

    If someone's feelings are hurt because their shortcomings were accurately identified, that doesn't merit any kind of punishment. If a binge-drinker with an IQ of 90 and poor work effort is told that his problems getting a job are that he drinks too much and is unreliable, that might be information he can use to change himself going forward.

    We should strive to have a society where people are not wronged.
    The problem with your scenario is you’re making the assumption that everyone struggling to pay off student debt is irresponsible. Not the case.

    As to your final comment, you may want to check on what the GOP has been up to these last few decades.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  3. #18318
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    For him, of course. He isn't smart enough to think beyond his own base needs and wants. The problem is, those who have bound themselves to him, those who drink up every word, every tweet, are they going to quietly forget? Or are they going to be simmering pots of Trump Soup just waiting to boiling over or explode? Grudges like this don't go away easily.

    Difference is, in 1918 Germany was the 'loser' and the Germans refused to accept it. In 2020, it's Trump who is the loser, not the U.S.

    So it depends on if people who supported Trump, who voted for him, believe that they were wronged or do they just believe that Trump was wronged? If it's just Trump, then this might die down eventually. But if they self identify with Trump, if they conflate Trump with the county, if patriotism becomes synonymous with supporting Trump in their minds, then yes, we could be in for a whole lot of trouble down the road.
    With the benefit of hindsight, it's a mistake to try and attribute the rise of the Nazis to Germany losing WWI, because there have been plenty of countries that have lost wars and not turned to genocidal totalitarianism, and of course both Italy and Japan saw the rise of similar political movements even though they had been on the winning side of the war. The people who make up Trump's base are clearly aggrieved now even though they haven't actually suffered in any meaningful way. They've constructed this whole identity around being these hypermasculine warriors fighting the good fight against some nebulously defined evil, and not only has this glorious battle failed to materialize, but any rational assessment of the situation would reveal that these "proud patriots" and "freedom lovers" were the real totalitarian oppressors all along, and this is not something that their brains are equipped to process.

  4. #18319
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    I think Putin's Russia resembles the trump administration more than Nazi Germany with their conservative government with strong Christian beliefs that has made it illegal to talk bad about Russian and has suppressed of the LGBT community. Not to mention the fact that Putin has been in power for what, 2 decades? Something that trump has viewed in a positive way.

  5. #18320
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I think Putin's Russia resembles the trump administration more than Nazi Germany with their conservative government with strong Christian beliefs that has made it illegal to talk bad about Russian and has suppressed of the LGBT community. Not to mention the fact that Putin has been in power for what, 2 decades? Something that trump has viewed in a positive way.
    And, I'd say, unlike Nazi Germany, which was unpopular amongst most neighbors in Europe but was still feared due to the threat of war as it was a war economy first and foremost, Putin's Russia is incredibly popular amongst a good portion of the global landscape thanks to Putin's cult of personality and a relatively large chunk of the world still having conservative values.

    This will sound crazy... but I don't think Adolf Hitler was very charismatic. He mainly got to power by giving extreme solutions to basic problems any society deals with in a country that was brutalized by punishments brought down as a result of losing the Great War, and tapped in to centuries old xenophobia and bigotry to give inspiration to Germany. Ergo, it was his philosophy that was popular not so much him.

    ... why do I feel so dirty?
    Last edited by JDogindy; 11-30-2020 at 05:02 PM.

  6. #18321
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Saint Ann, MO
    Posts
    3,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JDogindy View Post
    And, I'd say, unlike Nazi Germany, which was unpopular amongst most neighbors in Europe but was still feared due to the threat of war as it was a war economy first and foremost, Putin's Russia is incredibly popular amongst a good portion of the global landscape thanks to Putin's cult of personality and a relatively large chunk of the world still having conservative values.

    This will sound crazy... but I don't think Adolf Hitler was very charismatic. He mainly got to power by giving extreme solutions to basic problems any society deals with in a country that was brutalized by punishments brought down as a result of losing the Great War, and tapped in to centuries old xenophobia and bigotry to give inspiration to Germany. Ergo, it was his philosophy that was popular not so much him.

    ... why do I feel so dirty?
    While all of that is true, don't discount how charismatic Hitler was. He was able to draw large crowds to hear him speak long before it became mandatory to go hear him speak.

  7. #18322
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,587

    Default

    Trump retweeted a tweet that says, "why bother voting for Republicans?"

    Maybe Trump doesn't see himself as a Republican anymore.
    Original join date: 11/23/2004
    Eclectic Connoisseur of all things written, drawn or imaginatively created.

  8. #18323
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    13,121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    The problem with your scenario is you’re making the assumption that everyone struggling to pay off student debt is irresponsible. Not the case.

    As to your final comment, you may want to check on what the GOP has been up to these last few decades.
    I have never stated that everyone struggling to pay off student debt is irresponsible.

    That doesn't mean it's a good idea for the federal government to spend over a trillion dollars to eradicate student debt for the responsible and irresponsible alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Your entire argument is that forgiving student debt would be unfair to those who have paid theirs off already, which falls into that usual conservative trap of attributing every success or failure in life to one's moral character, whereas the reality is that outside circumstances probably played a much greater role in how well you manage to pay off your debt than how hard you worked. And I'm not sure what the logic is in painting indebted students as the above average income earners mooching off of the hard working taxpayers who never went to college presumably? Obviously the most privileged folks never had to take out any student loans to begin with, and if people are struggling with debt then it's unlikely that they'd have accumulated much wealth. But yeah, I'm sure those salt of the earth folks in rural red counties who didn't need no fancy book learning but have somehow managed to a earn a steady, but not too high, income without taking on any debt are really getting screwed over here.

    Besides, this idea that debts always need to be repaid in full and that failing to do so is somehow a character flaw is absurd - the possibility that some percentage of borrowers will default is always anticipated and reflected in the interest charged. Sometimes, fewer borrowers default than predicted and lenders earn a healthy profit, but other times, far more borrowers are unable to make payments than anticipated and the government has to step in and provide relief rather than leaving everyone to fend for themselves. And indeed, debt cancellation has been a relatively common practice historically, particularly when asking borrowers to meet a crushing debt burden saps economic productivity. This applies to student loans particularly, as it is not so much the harder working students that pay back their loans more quickly, but rather those that go for the safer jobs that offer steady paychecks, rather than shooting for the moon and trying to make a big splash, even though it is exactly this type of risk taking that we supposedly celebrate.
    I've been pretty clear not to attribute every success or failure in life to one's moral character, including in the post to which you're responding.

    I understand that many debts will never be repaid in full. However, making it too easy to default reduces the incentives for lenders to provide money for people who need it, or means that people who need money are going to have no choice but to borrow at exorbitant rates, because it is now their task to subsidize a larger percentage of defaulters. This will be especially true if education costs continue to price, as people figure that they won't have to pay the full price.

    There's a false dichotomy between career paths that offer safer paychecks and those that offer the possibility of a big splash. There are some majors where a big splash isn't really an option, or at least no more likely than in a major that helps people get a steady paycheck. There are also other ways to incentivize people to take risks that are in the aggregate worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    So one, on the higher sense of right and wrong there, totally appreciate that it's your honest opinion that it seems wrong, but I hope you can appreciate that all the people disagreeing with you here are also being honest. And true, it's just one forum, devoted to comic books, so not a representative sample by any stretch, but still I think worth keeping in mind ... definitely possible that many others may just have a different view of the right or wrong of this.

    And two, while we might agree in some abstract sense, because we are talking about a practical sense, I think it bears asking -- what greater authority would that be, exactly? And I mean, I hear you -- it's not Congress planning legislation ... but, if it's something even distantly possible, however unlikely -- if they really did suggest it, and he really did decide it was something to really do -- what real-world authority should we consider higher than Congress?

    I mean, we have the other two branches, but if the President is already on board, wouldn't the matter seem settled?
    My point on most of us believing that there is a higher standard of right and wrong than senators is because most people on this board do not trust the moral judgment of Mitch McConnell's Senate.

    The Congress and the President would have the legal authority to pass a massive college debt forgiveness program. They're probably not going to get the votes. If the President is on board, the matter isn't settled because the legal authority of the executive branch is limited.

    The Secretary of Education has some authority to cancel debt, although it's limited by statute, generally applying to situations of fraud, school closure or total and permanent disability. We can also bet that Biden's nominee for the office will be asked his or her position on how far they can go, and how far they should go.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfri...h=6cc71e587db3

    Biden's plan is to call for Congress to pass a bill forgiving ten thousand dollars in debt. That will spark some debate about ways to resolve the problem, but is a still different question than total cancellation.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  9. #18324
    Boisterously Confused
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,040

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Trump retweeted a tweet that says, "why bother voting for Republicans?"

    Maybe Trump doesn't see himself as a Republican anymore.
    Your comment supposes that Trump *ever* saw himself as part of something larger than himself. That's not how narcissists work.

    Any political affiliation (remember, he was Dem once) are simply a least resistance channel through which to achieve his goals. If Marxist dogma would smooth his path, he'd be all about The Collective Good For The Proletariat.

    Trump is opportunistic in the worst sense of the word. He is a virus seeking protein.

  10. #18325
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,124

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Trump retweeted a tweet that says, "why bother voting for Republicans?"

    Maybe Trump doesn't see himself as a Republican anymore.
    I'm not sure Trump ever saw himself as a Republican. He just saw that he had far more chance to run for president successfully as a Republican.
    Power with Girl is better.

  11. #18326
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I've been pretty clear not to attribute every success or failure in life to one's moral character, including in the post to which you're responding.

    I understand that many debts will never be repaid in full. However, making it too easy to default reduces the incentives for lenders to provide money for people who need it, or means that people who need money are going to have no choice but to borrow at exorbitant rates, because it is now their task to subsidize a larger percentage of defaulters. This will be especially true if education costs continue to price, as people figure that they won't have to pay the full price.

    There's a false dichotomy between career paths that offer safer paychecks and those that offer the possibility of a big splash. There are some majors where a big splash isn't really an option, or at least no more likely than in a major that helps people get a steady paycheck. There are also other ways to incentivize people to take risks that are in the aggregate worthwhile.
    I assume that you are referring to arts or humanities majors, because of course conservatives would be so short sighted to assume that there is absolutely no value in learning skills that aren't directly employable straight out of college, and that if we just raised an entire society of accountants and programmers our culture wouldn't suffer at all. But you really only have to look at the wide disparity in cultural output between the left and right to see the problem with that line of reasoning. It's not so much that conservatives are inherently incapable of producing anything of artistic value, it's just that they're pretty much all told from a young age that pursuing these dreams is a waste of time and that they should focus on being self-sufficient as quickly as possible. And then they turn around and complain that their views aren't adequately represented in movies and shows, and their only recourse is to hastily slap together some truly awful tripe that not even the most diehard of true believers can sit through.

  12. #18327
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Saint Ann, MO
    Posts
    3,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Trump retweeted a tweet that says, "why bother voting for Republicans?"

    Maybe Trump doesn't see himself as a Republican anymore.
    First time in years that I agree with him.

  13. #18328
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Freeville, NY
    Posts
    9,257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I assume that you are referring to arts or humanities majors, because of course conservatives would be so short sighted to assume that there is absolutely no value in learning skills that aren't directly employable straight out of college, and that if we just raised an entire society of accountants and programmers our culture wouldn't suffer at all. But you really only have to look at the wide disparity in cultural output between the left and right to see the problem with that line of reasoning. It's not so much that conservatives are inherently incapable of producing anything of artistic value, it's just that they're pretty much all told from a young age that pursuing these dreams is a waste of time and that they should focus on being self-sufficient as quickly as possible. And then they turn around and complain that their views aren't adequately represented in movies and shows, and their only recourse is to hastily slap together some truly awful tripe that not even the most diehard of true believers can sit through.
    That more or less sums it up. I would add one point, though. I think sometimes conservatives are intentionally ham-fisted in that hastily slapped together tripe. They often seem to have a vested interest in discrediting the art of comedy as a means of speaking truth to power. For instance, in 2007, FOX tried out a conservative answer to the Daily Show. It was called the Half-Hour News Hour, and it was horrible, not because it was conservative, but because the jokes were forced instead of coming organically from the raw material.
    Watching television is not an activity.

  14. #18329
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    4,067

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    That more or less sums it up. I would add one point, though. I think sometimes conservatives are intentionally ham-fisted in that hastily slapped together tripe. They often seem to have a vested interest in discrediting the art of comedy as a means of speaking truth to power. For instance, in 2007, FOX tried out a conservative answer to the Daily Show. It was called the Half-Hour News Hour, and it was horrible, not because it was conservative, but because the jokes were forced instead of coming organically from the raw material.
    Conservatives can be funny, they're just very hard to find. For example, Schwartzneggar, Kelsey Grammar and Sam Riami is rumored to be conservative. Dennis Miller was funny once upon a time, before 9/11 broke him. But you're right that many conservatives fail to get why comedy is funny, they like punching down and are more prone to stepping on third rails.

  15. #18330
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Trump retweeted a tweet that says, "why bother voting for Republicans?"

    Maybe Trump doesn't see himself as a Republican anymore.
    He never did, he gave way more money to the Democratic party for years, and his kids were registered in New York under Democrat when it came to voting. The only reason he ran as a Republican was because he was so pissed at President Obama for the "dis" he pretty much refused to run as a person under the same banner as him, so he went Republican. He probably has no real political affiliation, only to himself and his own ego. My guess was that if President Obama didn't run as a Democrat he would have primaried as a Dem.

    Whatever the case, if it gets the idiots in Georgia to not go vote and suppress themselves allowing for us to get the two Georgia seats, I would be more than happy if he keeps peddling his dumb ideas until it fractures the party and screws over Mitch the turtle.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •