All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[DrNewGod]

So, the My Pillow guy is losing distribution channels for his products over his reported urging of martial law. The other day, I made a comment about Conflix films, which proclaims itself as a haven for talent "denied work," with the subtext being "due to liberal political persecution" of the the talents' extreme conservative views.

My question: are the divisions Trumpism has inflamed in the US such that we're going to see two near-entirely separate economies begin to spin out of this?

[Amadeus Arkham]

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So, the My Pillow guy is losing distribution channels for his products over his reported urging of martial law. The other day, I made a comment about Conflix films, which proclaims itself as a haven for talent "denied work," with the subtext being "due to liberal political persecution" of the the talents' extreme conservative views.

My question: are the divisions Trumpism has inflamed in the US such that we're going to see two near-entirely separate economies begin to spin out of this?

Well it's not two separate economies for one thing.

My pillow losing regular distribution channels and Conflix films making films mainstream media won't touch puts them on the level of small business (or theoretical and technical "small business" in the case of Mypillow) and independent marginal film-makers. That's the same economy still. It's just that some are marginal on the others.

Of course from a company standpoint it would be a downgrade for Mypillow but there's a song about people in the high life brought low and made humble for them to rock out...

[Powerboy]

What's your opinion, if you don't mind me asking?

I think it's without a question that Trump
a) Wanted to remain President.
b) Really believed he could overturn the election and win.
c) Acted to make that happen.

His actions before/during/after the Putsch simply don't make sense otherwise. I don't think any other explanation really works, barring an extraordinary amount of evidence. My feeling is that Trump aimed to stop the certification of the election and intimidate the GOP Senate (which had a majority at the time) to object to certifying Biden's electoral votes...and in any case delay and forestall the day of certification. More than that, I don't think Trump planned further beyond because Trump is the man of the desperate gamble, the "hail mary" and the "inside straight" and so on. He's not someone who thinks about "and then what?"

Remember that the Putsch was by no means a spontaneous protest movement like the George Floyd protests, or for that matter the Storming of the Bastille, or the Arab Spring, those were spontaneous bottom-up revolutions. The Putsch by contrast was out of state activists coming to DC at invitation by Trump and his supporters and other mobilizers. This was not by any means an unplanned spontaneous thing at least in terms of assembly. So yeah, Trump was aiming for a coup d'etat, a self-coup, a Putsch. He wanted to overturn an election he lost, the will of the people, and come to power by means of force and intimidation on a co-equal branch of government whose authority he wished to subordinate directly to his whims. I don't think you can argue against that. Strategically that was his aim. Tactically I think is where you have the debate.

When I say "Tactically" I mean the question -- What Trump intended to happen with the Capitol? How far did he plan for it to go? Did he actually intend the deaths of Pence/Pelosi/others at Capitol Hill?

I think Trump's tactical aim was to arrest/halt/prevent the certification of electoral votes on January 6. That was his immediate tactical aim. He wanted to prevent Biden from having any legitimacy, and he wanted to use that to rouse the electorate and create enough hell and intimidate enough that he creates a situation like the Compromise of 1877 (which nearly led to two Inaugurations of two Presidents until a last minute corrupt bargain between two parties). Ted Cruz mentioned 1877 in the Senate a few days before the Putsch. Trump did assemble a crowd and sent them to march at Capitol Hill. That's inarguable. He told them "march down Pennsylvania Avenue" and "show strength". Now what did he intend to happen? I think Trump definitely wanted the crowd outside to intimidate the senators and representatives. Did he intened to go as far as kidnapping and murder? Did he actually plot to kill the VP and Speaker? I would probably say not but at the same time it's irrelevant because Trump and his coterie assembled and tried to assemble militias like the Proud Boys and others there and when you bring them over, he was gambling and angling for collateral damage. Tactically Trump was aiming for a constitutional crisis at the low end, and a coup d'etat at the high end. The likely result of "success" on Jan. 6 would be Civil War, what would likely be a very short and quick one.

Had Trump succeeded on Jan. 6...which would mean say the Putschists break in, kill Pence, Pelosi, and take some Dem Senate and Reps hostage, while survivors get smuggled out somehow...what you would have had is Civil War with Blue States and some GOP supporting the Blues, against MAGA-aligned territories. In a situation of Civil War, I think it ends quickly because DC is surrounded by Blue States (sure Maryland has the very centrist GOP Gov. Hogan but he absolutely would back Biden based on all he has done and said in his career) but the question is if the military in DC backs Trump or Biden, and so on. It would have led to a vicious street fight in DC. But Trump was in a very bad strategic position in that hypothetical scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O70PORSBi7I

This is from April of 2019, predicts that if Trump loses in 2020, it will be the ugliest transition of power in American history and gets into exactly why.

[Joker]

Some posts on YouTube are suggesting that the National Guard are in DC to help install trump in the White House. Not sure if these posts are trump supporters or Russian trolls.

STop watching this kind of ****. You're just helping it flourish. Starve this garbage.

[DrNewGod]

...The one thing that I'm certain will have a prominent place across the board (except the revisionists that are already at work) will be the failed coup attempt. Not only is it the single most dramatic event of Trump's disgraceful presidency, there's enough room to keep historians debating whether he accidentally threw gasoline on it, or deliberately built it himself. I have my own opinion, but I suspect you're going to find debate among the professional scholars for decades, possibly even centuries to come...

What's your opinion, if you don't mind me asking?

I think it's without a question that Trump
a) Wanted to remain President.
b) Really believed he could overturn the election and win.
c) Acted to make that happen...

Not at all.

• Did he cause it? Oh yeah. Without doubt.
• Did he plan it? I doubt it.

Whist I agree with your three points, I doubt Trump plans so much as even whether or not he's getting one cheeseburger or two for his lunch. He acts, and he exploits.

As you say, for a long list of reasons that have been chewed into tatters on this thread over the last few years, Trump wanted to remain president. He frequently blurts outrageous statements that his base takes as communicating a master plan that I don't think he's got. He spits stuff out, sees what takes, and doubles down on what seems to be working or ignores stuff that doesn't.

Like you, I believe he fully thought he could overturn an election, because he narcissisticly needs to believe that he can achieve anything to which he applies his will. He also has no respect for anything but his own will and achievements, certainly not for law, mores, or tradition. He needs to believe that he's the greatest president ever, so (in that cesspool between his ears) the only thing that could prevent him from winning a vote was a cheat. I'm not so sure that narrative was a deliberate plan as much as it was his reaction to where the polls were going all of 2020. Remember, he was saying a similar thing back in 2016 when, he didn't believe himself that he could win. Some of it was conscious brand management, but I suspect a lot of it was a patella-reflex to interdict any narrative that he lost at something.

The "cheat" lie caught with his base, and he stoked it. Again, I don't think he was scheming sedition at that point, but the narrative was working, so he exploited it, and looked for the opportunities it opened.

Like you, I'm convinced that he acted to promote the coup attempt. It was the opportunity in front of him that could prove beneficial to him, and he did what he always does: exploited it. Naturally, with no thought to the consequences (...and he's damned lucky; second-place prize in a coup usually involves a shallow hole in the dirt somewhere).

Now, there were absolutely seditionists around him whispering in his ear what could be done and how to do it (Flynn, Pompeo, Pillow Guy are probably the only ones we know about; the fact that DeVos bailed so fast after The 6th makes me wonder what Erik Prince was whispering [that dude knows what second-place in a coup looks like]). But I don't think he actively directed anyone to plan and execute a coup.

All this hairsplitting above aside, Trump's absolutely responsible for the coup. Things he said to people, public and private, set them on the path to The 6th. The resultant actions he exploited gave those people encouragement and energy to attempt a coup. Knowing what we know at this moment, I think that's as true for the shadowy figures seen at the riot as it is for the Vegan Mardi Gras Viking who's deservedly rotting in a cell.

In the end, regardless of what he planned, that coup-attempt was Trump's doing. He tossed a match into a paint factory, and continually fanned the flames.

He deserves to spend the rest of his life in Fort Leavenworth for it. I doubt we'll get that lucky.

[DrNewGod]

Well it's not two separate economies for one thing.

My pillow losing regular distribution channels and Conflix films making films mainstream media won't touch puts them on the level of small business (or theoretical and technical "small business" in the case of Mypillow) and independent marginal film-makers. That's the same economy still. It's just that some are marginal on the others.

Of course from a company standpoint it would be a downgrade for Mypillow but there's a song about people in the high life brought low and made humble for them to rock out...

My question was ill-posed. If Trump supporting companies are getting (or feeling like they're getting) kicked to the curb by the mainstream business environment, will we see some kind of "shop Trump" movement crop up among the Trumpsters, and might it (at least attempt to) divorce itself from the channels of distribution "those unamerican stealers" use?

[Amadeus Arkham]

Looks like Moscow Mitch is leaning towards a conviction!

[WestPhillyPunisher]

STop watching this kind of ****. You're just helping it flourish. Starve this garbage.

Exactly this. Don’t give that nonsense any oxygen.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

McConnell is baiting and teasing it seems. I'll believe he'll vote to convict during the Senate trial and not anytime before.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Well, I guess Moscow Mitch is officially done with Trump and kicked his one time useful idiot to the curb.

[PwrdOn]

I'm not sure how it hurts my argument if Democrats don't know what they want on an important issue because they're unwilling to reconcile contradictory impulses.

You may be onto something, but I've said similar stuff on the matter.

It hurts your argument because so casually aligning yourself with blood and soil politics simply because you refuse to consider open borders paints you as someone that isn't to be taken seriously. The American economy relies on immigration to function and would collapse if we relied on "real Americans" to supply the bulk of the labor, whether unskilled or skilled. Indeed the whole idea of the American dream was that even the humblest peasant in Europe could live like a aristocrat in the New World because of the abundance of "empty" land and slave labor to work it. So the alternative to creating a pathway to citizenship would be to reinstitute a permanent servile class of "guest workers" that will pay taxes but never be represented in government, reserving citizenship for the privileged few who happen to have it already who, wouldn't you know it, just happen to be mostly white. That couldn't possibly end poorly.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Well, I guess Moscow Mitch is officially done with Trump and kicked his one time useful idiot to the curb.

It's probably a stunt to bait Dems and extort some kind of concessions in exchange for token bipartisan considering of Biden bills (aka stuff he should do as part of his elected job but won't because he's a f--king *******).

McConnell is aiming for 2022 and plotting with that in mind, so derailing and compromising Biden's agenda and damaging a win is done with that in mind and the upcoming trial is part of his play...and McConnell is keeping cards close to his chest to see what play he can do so that he can move anyway until the last possible moment.

All this hairsplitting above aside, Trump's absolutely responsible for the coup. Things he said to people, public and private, set them on the path to The 6th. The resultant actions he exploited gave those people encouragement and energy to attempt a coup. Knowing what we know at this moment, I think that's as true for the shadowy figures seen at the riot as it is for the Vegan Mardi Gras Viking who's deservedly rotting in a cell.

In the end, regardless of what he planned, that coup-attempt was Trump's doing. He tossed a match into a paint factory, and continually fanned the flames.

He deserves to spend the rest of his life in Fort Leavenworth for it. I doubt we'll get that lucky.

Agreed on this. I actually think we are both in agreement. Trump didn't have a comprehensive plan in terms of what actual coup leaders do...i.e. they would look at the political consequences and if it leads to war, their actual military situation (which in the case of Trump would lead to basically a defeat in a day or two at tops considering that VA and MD which surround DC are blue states and DC itself is a blue city) and also plot executions and recruit those who he can rely on to do the job. He was improvising and gambling his way to that end, but that doesn't mean what he did isn't a coup d'etat.

My question was ill-posed. If Trump supporting companies are getting (or feeling like they're getting) kicked to the curb by the mainstream business environment, will we see some kind of "shop Trump" movement crop up among the Trumpsters, and might it (at least attempt to) divorce itself from the channels of distribution "those unamerican stealers" use?

We'll have to see the follow-through on that. But I doubt it will get far.

I mean this is basically a kind of right wing attempt at a kind of economic self-reliance which you see with African Americans and others patronizing and supporting local businesses and communities and so on.

[DrNewGod]

... I actually think we are both in agreement...

We should treasure this rare and precious moment.

[Joker]

My question was ill-posed. If Trump supporting companies are getting (or feeling like they're getting) kicked to the curb by the mainstream business environment, will we see some kind of "shop Trump" movement crop up among the Trumpsters, and might it (at least attempt to) divorce itself from the channels of distribution "those unamerican stealers" use?

They'll just be supporting Chinese manufacturing.