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  1. #5056

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    So you accept then that communism is a much better economic system for developing under adverse conditions?
    Unlike you, I bet, I actually visited communist Eastern Germany and the Soviet Union as a student back in the late 80s.

    You would not have liked it.

    The tapwater in our hotel in Leningrad was rusty brown. The air quality was so bad I had black stuff coming out of my nose when I blew it every evening. Black market guys were offering me a lot of rubles for the Levi's jeans I was wearing... still not sure how that would have worked, getting back to my hotel in briefs? The tea, the bread and the candy was decent. All the other food was horrible: One night, one girl from our class started sleepwalking and when her friends stopped her she said: "I wasn't going to eat anything, I was just going to have a look at it" because she was traumatized by dinner.

    Alcoholism was a huge problem in both the Soviet Union and Eastern Germany, affecting life expectancy.

    And the DDR was a nation of spies. I suggest you watch the movie "The Lives of Others." We had relatives in the East, and I actually own a Stasi file that mentions me when I was 4 years old because they had opened the birthday gift my aunt had sent me and typed out the content of the letter word by word and made an assessment on whether that was a suspicious delivery.

    Yes, capitalism has huge problems. But even as somebody who grew up somewhat underprivileged I have to say that most instances of late 20th century and early 21st century capitalism beat the hell out of any communist state, ever. And I think our German system, "soziale Marktwirtschaft" which you also have in many EU countries, combines the best parts of both systems and allows for the most dignified lives of the citizens.

  2. #5057
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    Unlike you, I bet, I actually visited communist Eastern Germany and the Soviet Union as a student back in the late 80s.

    You would not have liked it.

    The tapwater in our hotel in Leningrad was rusty brown. The air quality was so bad I had black stuff coming out of my nose when I blew it every evening. Black market guys were offering me a lot of rubles for the Levi's jeans I was wearing... still not sure how that would have worked, getting back to my hotel in briefs? The tea, the bread and the candy was decent. All the other food was horrible: One night, one girl from our class started sleepwalking and when her friends stopped her she said: "I wasn't going to eat anything, I was just going to have a look at it" because she was traumatized by dinner.

    Alcoholism was a huge problem in both the Soviet Union and Eastern Germany, affecting life expectancy.

    And the DDR was a nation of spies. I suggest you watch the movie "The Lives of Others." We had relatives in the East, and I actually own a Stasi file that mentions me when I was 4 years old because they had opened the birthday gift my aunt had sent me and typed out the content of the letter word by word and made an assessment on whether that was a suspicious delivery.

    Yes, capitalism has huge problems. But even as somebody who grew up somewhat underprivileged I have to say that most instances of late 20th century and early 21st century capitalism beat the hell out of any communist state, ever. And I think our German system, "soziale Marktwirtschaft" which you also have in many EU countries, combines the best parts of both systems and allows for the most dignified lives of the citizens.
    I grew up in a communist country too, life was certainly not luxurious and there was quite a bit of social unrest brewing, and as a kid I definitely felt pretty privileged to be able to emigrate and enjoy the wealth and opportunities available in America. However, some 30 years on, I think we can safely say in hindsight that the response of most former communist countries to simply bow to Western demands to liberalize their economies overnight proved to be a complete disaster, as much of the industrial base was sold off to oligarchs for pennies on the dollar leading to widespread economic devastation, and abortive attempts at democratization were halted with the rise of right wing autocrats and neo-Nazi movements. Yes, East Germany was rather lucky in that they were able to reunite with a rising economic power that was willing to shoulder the burden of rebuilding them from scratch, but even now there's still a substantial divide between the two halves. Other countries didn't have a wealthy benefactor to unite with, and in some cases the fall of communism meant the end of the only thing holding the country together as in Yugoslavia, and I think we can all agree that for all the faults of that government, the decade of chaos, warfare, and genocide that followed its collapse were far worse than anything the communists ever did.

  3. #5058
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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  4. #5059
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Having visited a few former Communist countries in Europe. Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Russia and more. I would say most look like they are doing better. Especially the EU ones.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #5060
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Won't matter to his base or the GOP.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #5061
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    Another red state called Arizona joins the Top 10 hardest covid hit states. Florida has +9,585 new covid cases in one day.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    I don't know which persons are more foolish. The incompetent governors who are placing the economy above the people's health. Or the ignorant folk who refuse to wear face masks or stay at home unless they are living in an apartment with a shared air ventilation with other people's apartment units.

  7. #5062
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    Unlike you, I bet, I actually visited communist Eastern Germany and the Soviet Union as a student back in the late 80s.

    You would not have liked it.

    The tapwater in our hotel in Leningrad was rusty brown. The air quality was so bad I had black stuff coming out of my nose when I blew it every evening. Black market guys were offering me a lot of rubles for the Levi's jeans I was wearing... still not sure how that would have worked, getting back to my hotel in briefs? The tea, the bread and the candy was decent. All the other food was horrible: One night, one girl from our class started sleepwalking and when her friends stopped her she said: "I wasn't going to eat anything, I was just going to have a look at it" because she was traumatized by dinner.

    Alcoholism was a huge problem in both the Soviet Union and Eastern Germany, affecting life expectancy.

    And the DDR was a nation of spies. I suggest you watch the movie "The Lives of Others." We had relatives in the East, and I actually own a Stasi file that mentions me when I was 4 years old because they had opened the birthday gift my aunt had sent me and typed out the content of the letter word by word and made an assessment on whether that was a suspicious delivery.

    Yes, capitalism has huge problems. But even as somebody who grew up somewhat underprivileged I have to say that most instances of late 20th century and early 21st century capitalism beat the hell out of any communist state, ever. And I think our German system, "soziale Marktwirtschaft" which you also have in many EU countries, combines the best parts of both systems and allows for the most dignified lives of the citizens.
    If communism was truly better and only colonization explained away any countries that did better under capitalism there are far, far too many exceptions to PwrdOn's rule.

    Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia are all doing much better than they were under Communism, plus the examples of more than a few countries which certainly didn't benefit directly from colonization like Ireland (which suffered under it like no other European nation - the population STILL hasn't recovered from British mismanagement of the potato famine).

    While Japan had a brutal (albeit thankfully short lived) empire, it didn't have the benefits of one to rebuild after the Second World War, and I don't think South Korea ever had such things. And the difference between per person wealth in Taiwan vs Mainland China is pretty stark as well.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  8. #5063
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I grew up in a communist country too, life was certainly not luxurious and there was quite a bit of social unrest brewing, and as a kid I definitely felt pretty privileged to be able to emigrate and enjoy the wealth and opportunities available in America. However, some 30 years on, I think we can safely say in hindsight that the response of most former communist countries to simply bow to Western demands to liberalize their economies overnight proved to be a complete disaster, as much of the industrial base was sold off to oligarchs for pennies on the dollar leading to widespread economic devastation, and abortive attempts at democratization were halted with the rise of right wing autocrats and neo-Nazi movements. Yes, East Germany was rather lucky in that they were able to reunite with a rising economic power that was willing to shoulder the burden of rebuilding them from scratch, but even now there's still a substantial divide between the two halves. Other countries didn't have a wealthy benefactor to unite with, and in some cases the fall of communism meant the end of the only thing holding the country together as in Yugoslavia, and I think we can all agree that for all the faults of that government, the decade of chaos, warfare, and genocide that followed its collapse were far worse than anything the communists ever did.
    Yugoslavia was a pile of disparate ethnic groups smashed together by a group of Imperial Idiots after World War One - the real surprise is that it lasted as long as it did after Tito died. The first big cracks started to appear (to the rest of the world, they were probably always there) the year after his death.

    Those maps drawn during and after The Great Loot are still haunting the planet and likely will for decades to come.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  9. #5064
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    If communism was truly better and only colonization explained away any countries that did better under capitalism there are far, far too many exceptions to PwrdOn's rule.

    Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia are all doing much better than they were under Communism, plus the examples of more than a few countries which certainly didn't benefit directly from colonization like Ireland (which suffered under it like no other European nation - the population STILL hasn't recovered from British mismanagement of the potato famine).

    While Japan had a brutal (albeit thankfully short lived) empire, it didn't have the benefits of one to rebuild after the Second World War, and I don't think South Korea ever had such things. And the difference between per person wealth in Taiwan vs Mainland China is pretty stark as well.
    Japan didn't need its own empire to rebuild after the war, because it could rely on help from America for that, as our military had a vested interest in building them up as a bulwark against communist expansion, helping them sweep their ugly history under the rug in the process. And the same goes for South Korea and Taiwan, whose governments would not have survived without American military backing and largely remained as autocratic dictatorships all the way up to the 1990s. It's not for nothing that MacArthur referred to Taiwan as the US Navy's "unsinkable aircraft carrier" and both Japan and Korea maintain plenty of US military bases to this day, largely against the wishes of the local population. And any attempt by these countries to exercise their own initiative in trade and diplomacy has been quickly slapped down by American power, such as when Japan's currency devaluation was ended by the US-imposed Plaza Accords, that popped their economic bubble and sent their economy into a period of stagnation that it has yet to recover from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Yugoslavia was a pile of disparate ethnic groups smashed together by a group of Imperial Idiots after World War One - the real surprise is that it lasted as long as it did after Tito died. The first big cracks started to appear (to the rest of the world, they were probably always there) the year after his death.

    Those maps drawn during and after The Great Loot are still haunting the planet and likely will for decades to come.
    But see, the idea that people should live in these homogeneous ethnostates was mistaken to begin with, because there's no way to draw the borders that would ever make anyone happy. While communism has never been quite so good at actually implementing this ideal of different ethnic groups living together and working toward a common goal, it is still something that we should aspire to. Breaking up countries into these little pieces that are always fighting with each other just makes life miserable for everyone, and opens all of them up to manipulation and exploitation by outside influences, which remains true to this day as the Balkans are still a battleground between Russian and NATO interests.
    Last edited by PwrdOn; 06-27-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  10. #5065
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Who the hell could they nominate that would be more popular? They attached themselves to Trump at the hip

  11. #5066
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Who the hell could they nominate that would be more popular? They attached themselves to Trump at the hip
    Tucker Carlsson.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  12. #5067
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Tucker Carlsson.
    You spelled that wrong. It's Tuckkker Carlsson.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  13. #5068
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    You spelled that wrong. It's Tuckkker Carlsson.
    The T is silent but pronounced like an f?
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  14. #5069
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    But seriously, any Republican thrown into the spotlight that shortly before the convention has a chance to be "generic Republican" which usually does better as a person having had negative ads against them for a year. Imagine if they nominated one of their black House members.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  15. #5070
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    But seriously, any Republican thrown into the spotlight that shortly before the convention has a chance to be "generic Republican" which usually does better as a person having had negative ads against them for a year. Imagine if they nominated one of their black House members.
    This does make me wonder what the RNC might do, hypothetically, if Trump drops out of the race or for some other reason isn't available. It's not like they allowed any other possible candidates to primary him.
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