All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Obama is right. You can't expect people to go 180, you need change to happen in a way that is as inclusive as possible then progress from there.

>The enemy of progress is the white moderate. – Dr. King


Just sayin!

[Joker]

>The enemy of progress is the white moderate. – Dr. King


Just sayin!

What state was it where black voters turned out in huge numbers to vote against gay rights?

Which is only to say the enemy of progress is a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. If I wanted to blame a singular group, it would be the religious.

[Adam Allen]

https://www.startribune.com/staggeri...ide/573257391/

I have been seeing stories like this all year. And obviously I can't be indifferent about it, I have been concerned about my own safety, about family, friends, co-workers. But again, I feel like ignoring the fact that all this started with a video of a man being murdered by police officers is not the path to safety. Thugs with badges is why we are less safe, now.

I want to be clear, I definitely do not think all cops are bad or even most. But I do think the system protects the bad ones, and that taints them all. And both during the riots and since, I have basically felt like neighbors have kept each other safe, more than police have. That's a good overall, but it also makes me unconvinced with arguments like from the article, that moving 5% of police funding to other services would be disastrous. Well, they've already been doing a pretty questionable job of keeping us safe. Shouldn't we try something?

[BeastieRunner]

>The enemy of progress is the white moderate. – Dr. King


Just sayin!

What state was it where black voters turned out in huge numbers to vote against gay rights?

Which is only to say the enemy of progress is a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. If I wanted to blame a singular group, it would be the religious.

I was hoping after 2016, 2018, and now 2020 we as Americans would have learned that there are no monolithic voters anymore.

The constant need to blame a voting bloc or assuming people vote one way needs to stop.

It's not going to bring people to the table but instead make people choose sides.

Is that not what we want? Get everyone to table and move forward?

[Joker]

As I said a lot of people vote certain ways for certain reasons. But let's not pretend single issue voters don't exist. Let's not pretend for some people, one issue doesn't supersede another.

Hispanic Catholicism is problematic, as are black “Christians” of whichever sub-sect they identify. They want progress for “minorities” but not the gays. Not for reproductive rights for women.

That applies to white religious voters as well, but does away with the comment of the white moderate being the enemy of progress.


Just to be clear: I hate religion. Your personal belief system is just that. Personal to you. It does not need to be nor should it be actual fucking law.

[PwrdOn]

I was hoping after 2016, 2018, and now 2020 we as Americans would have learned that there are no monolithic voters anymore.

The constant need to blame a voting bloc or assuming people vote one way needs to stop.

It's not going to bring people to the table but instead make people choose sides.

Is that not what we want? Get everyone to table and move forward?

Voters are not monolithic but there are definitely well-defined blocs that have interests in common and will vote for whoever promises to further those interests. You can talk about unifying the country all you want but at the end of the day different groups of people in this country have inherently conflicting interests and policy makers have to choose who they're going to prioritize.

As I said a lot of people vote certain ways for certain reasons.

Hispanic Catholicism is problematic, as are black “Christians” of whichever sub-sect they identify. They want progress for “minorities” but not the gays. Not for reproductive rights for women.

That applies to white religious voters as well, but does away with the comment of the white moderate being the enemy of progress.

But this isn't just some idle comment, it's based on centuries of historical evidence. White moderates are rather notorious for loudly championing causes that they have no personal stake in, and upon winning some minor concession, prematurely declaring the problem solved and moving on to some other thing, even though the people who they are supposed to be helping are still clamoring for more reform, but nobody is listening anymore because the "legitimacy" that the white activists brought to their cause left with them.

[Joker]

I'm not arguing against that point so much as just saying "progress" has many enemies, and it's going to change depending on each issue.

I'm familiar with the quote, and I understand it's meaning, I just don't know if I think it's very apt these days?

[PwrdOn]

I'm not arguing against that point so much as just saying "progress" has many enemies, and it's going to change depending on each issue.

I'm familiar with the quote, and I understand it's meaning, I just don't know if I think it's very apt these days?

Well we had an entire summer of massive protests around the country focused on police brutality, and rather than seize upon the moment to really push for real change, the leaders of the supposedly left wing party basically just told everyone to sit down and shut up because they were going to scare off all the moderate voters with this talk of defunding the police and that the overriding goal was to get rid of Trump. And look at what's happening now that Biden has won, the Democrats are still bending over backwards trying to reach across the aisle and placate Republicans, even though we know that will never work, and blaming all the "extreme" demands of the left to try and explain why they underperformed in Congressional and state races. What more needs to happen before moderates can accept that it's time to take real action when it comes to police brutality? And what about for health care, or climate change, or income inequality, or any other issue you can name?

[Tami]

Newly released data shows that properties owned by the Trump Organization and Kushner Companies profited from pandemic relief programs: In total, it was more than 25 PPP loans worth more than $3.65 million.

Twitter Link

Release of PPP loan recipients' data reveals troubling patterns

Sweeping data released by the Small Business Administration on who benefited from pandemic relief programs raises questions about the equitability and distribution of loans intended for small businesses, an initial analysis by NBC News shows.

The analysis found that properties owned by the Trump Organization as well as the Kushner Companies, owned by the family of Jared Kushner, President Donald Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser, profited from the program.

After months of litigation, the SBA released the dataset Tuesday night on every small business that received a Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) or Economic Injury Disaster (EIDL) loan.

The data reveals the most complete accounting to date of the more than $700 billion in forgivable loans Congress and the Trump administration introduced in the spring for allowable expenses, including payroll, rent, utilities and mortgage interest payments.

[BeastieRunner]

I don't think it that is truly about being resistant or blocking "progress" or "change" for ideological purposes.

People are flat out schizophrenic when it comes to change.

"I want equal pay! But only for me, not black people. Nevermind, let's keep things the way they were."

Etc.

Change is hard and not permanent. Progress will last. I'm tired of the blame game and wanting to "other" everything.

It feels so tribal, like I am watching a Sunday football game.

Our emotions can overwhelm our rational thought, while relying solely on rational behavior can “overanalyze and over think things.” There are better ways to make a change than probably what most think. Most likely they are plain and simple but you have to set forth a goal to achieve this change. The progress points for America must be realistic goals. "Can we move just this little piece here for equality?"

What looks like a people problem is often a situation problem. All change efforts usually have something in common: “For anything to change, someone has to start acting differently.” That is why I think this blame game needs to stop. But the question is always that, “Can you get people to start behaving in a new way?”

What looks like laziness is often exhaustion. For example, when you try so hard to get new people to register to vote, then they tell you that don’t want to because it doesn’t matter. Makes you want to give up. We are all human but sometimes we tend to make the default plan because that was the first plan given to us and when looking at the facts we look at the negative side, which then leads us to our first decision, which may not always be the best.

It’s not lazy, it is just hard to maintain a movement.

In highly successful change efforts, people find ways to help others see the problems or solutions in ways that influence emotions, not just thought. That is why I think it is important to understand the emotional aspect of “progress”. In other words, when change works, it’s because leaders are speaking to the emotional and logical sides of the problems. Any new quest, even one that is ultimately successful, is going to involve failure.

Civil Rights and Women’s Suffrage took nearly a 100 years before actual progress. Nor can you learn to transform the way people look at the world, or change minds about urban poverty, or restore compromise into American politics, without failing.

For this tribalism to end, we have to stop presenting it that way, too.

I have no idea if that helps you understand my point well.

[Joker]

Well we had an entire summer of massive protests around the country focused on police brutality, and rather than seize upon the moment to really push for real change, the leaders of the supposedly left wing party basically just told everyone to sit down and shut up because they were going to scare off all the moderate voters with this talk of defunding the police and that the overriding goal was to get rid of Trump. And look at what's happening now that Biden has won, the Democrats are still bending over backwards trying to reach across the aisle and placate Republicans, even though we know that will never work, and blaming all the "extreme" demands of the left to try and explain why they underperformed in Congressional and state races. What more needs to happen before moderates can accept that it's time to take real action when it comes to police brutality? And what about for health care, or climate change, or income inequality, or any other issue you can name?

We’re having different conversations.

[BeastieRunner]

Christian Science Monitor had a rather interesting study out recently. I think this speaks loudly to what is going on.



It nearly echoes the recent Pew study, too.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

He has always been super cautious and moderate around racial issues. In fact I'm sure a good deal of his success is owed to that, his ability to play to a center lane that isn't as scary as those who would like to see real considerable change. I've always found it kind of frustrating, but at the same time I also have to acknowledge I don't think he's just saying what he thinks people want to hear -- I think his moderate "work within the system" crap is his real opinion.

And he was president, and obviously a much better one than the lunatic we've had for the last four years. So, he's entitled to his opinion. But agreed, he is not who is needed at point on this issue.



I disagree with him, because his argument ignores the obvious fact that "Defund the Police" is exactly what we're talking about. It is the conversation we are having. It is the only reason we're having the conversation.

Let people get terrified and call you insane for saying you want to get rid of the police completely. They can be the insane one, for jumping to the conclusion and ignoring everything else you're saying. But if it takes that, to move you beyond Thoughts and Prayers, then that's what we have to keep saying.

Minneapolis is still struggling over the slogan. Police feel unsupported, and are supporting the communities less because of it. And it pains me to see how much of my city still has not recovered after all the rioting and arson -- it's not on the news, because it is not news, but it's not like everything just snapped back to normal, after all of that. But I can't say we should back off the slogan, because I don't feel like we can ignore that all this started because a man was murdered in a supposedly liberal town, because the officer who murdered him felt the force he was a part of condoned it. Because they in fact did condone it! It took all the rioting and arson, to make it clear that it was not okay.

And just saying "reforms" will just send the message everybody has calmed down, and we can go back to business as usual. But, we shouldn't go back to that.

Back in the day I constantly defended Obama from the right AND the left. Even on this very board during his first term. By his late second term I was indifferent to his administration.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

What state was it where black voters turned out in huge numbers to vote against gay rights?

Which is only to say the enemy of progress is a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. If I wanted to blame a singular group, it would be the religious.

Personally I've always said that black moderates are to blame too. So has a lot of other black people. Especially on social media.

[BeastieRunner]

Trump has gone bye bye ...