1. #17851
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Oxford announces their version of the vaccine is rather effective.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55040635

    The Oxford vaccine is cheaper and does not require expensive refrigeration. It might be less effective, but this remains good news.

    https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status...10252833837060

    If the vaccine news had come out earlier, I wonder what the effects would have been on the election, given that Trump did lose key states by less than one point.

    Would he have done better if there's an end in sight to COVID, and he would be taking all sorts of unearned credit?

    I could also imagine him doing worse, as uncertain voters trust him to bulldoze regulations to get a vaccine out quickly enoughly enough, but would still prefer the Biden administration to be in charge of distribution.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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    Hi, I'm french and a little offended by what I see here.
    I made a search on the events that happened in Albertville and what the NY times fails to mention is that there were death threats against the teacher, and those last weeks there have been many death threats against many teachers. The thing is wether you take these threats seriously and you get bashed for conducting a search and interrogating the family and children to assess wether they're radicalised or not or you do nothing and if an act of terrorisme happens you're bashed for not having done enough. Anyway we're losing.

    We're in the middle of a terrorist crisis in France and far from being supported by our allies we're being bashed by them, we may not have the same appreciation of La´citÚ but what I'm seeing in the american newspapers right now is like putting salt on the wound, accusing France of racism, which only helps radicalised people feel more vindicated and fuel anti-french sentiment. We're victims of terrorism, just like The US were on 09/11, I'd have hoped more compassion and understanding, but maybe that's too much to ask.

    I have more than a little problem with Macron and his politics but right now the comments that I see here just make me sad. You're not being helpful with those Robespierre references and saying we're worse than Bush Jr. I had a lot of respect for the people on this thread but what I'm seeing is not nice at all for people supposed to be humane.
    Sorry for the rant.
    Last edited by mogwen; 11-23-2020 at 09:46 AM.

  3. #17853
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    Hi, I'm french and a little offended by what I see here.
    I made a search on the events that happened in Albertville and what the NY times fails to mention (because it's reporting only what was written in a Turkish newspaper without bothering to do their job and ask the french police) is that there were death threats against the teacher, and those last weeks there have been many death threats against many teachers. The thing is wether you take these threats seriously and you get bashed for conducting a search and interrogating the family and children to assess wether they're radicalised or not or you do nothing and if an act of terrorisme happens you're bashed for not having done enough. Anyway we're losing.

    We're in the middle of a terrorist crisis in France and far from being supported by our allies we're being bashed by them, we may not have the same appreciation of La´citÚ but what I'm seeing in the american newspapers right now is like putting salt on the wound, accusing France of racism, which only helps radicalised people feel more vindicated and fuel anti-french sentiment. We're victims of terrorism, just like The US were on 09/11, I'd have hoped more compassion and understanding, but maybe that's too much to ask.

    I have more than a little problem with Macron and his politics but right now the comments that I see here just make me sad. You're not being helpful with those Robespierre references and saying we're worse than Bush Jr. I had a lot of respect for the people on this thread but what I'm seeing is not nice at all for people supposed to be humane.
    Sorry for the rant.
    That's why we need more people like you to speak up. That is part of the purpose of this Thread, to share information, discuss it, and learn from it. The article that I posted was the jumping off point for the discussion, but not the end of it. Thank you fro speaking up and letting us who are not residents of France hear the views of someone who is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    That's why we need more people like you to speak up. That is part of the purpose of this Thread, to share information, discuss it, and learn from it. The article that I posted was the jumping off point for the discussion, but not the end of it. Thank you fro speaking up and letting us who are not residents of France hear the views of someone who is.
    And thank you for your kind answer. The problem for us actually is that we have domestic terrorism on our soil, with Turkey making hostile moves against us to fuel it, and that our supposed allies UK, Canada and the US are bashing us at the same time. France might make mistakes, I'm sure, but we're not feeling helped at all.

  5. #17855
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    Hi, I'm french and a little offended by what I see here.
    I made a search on the events that happened in Albertville and what the NY times fails to mention is that there were death threats against the teacher, and those last weeks there have been many death threats against many teachers. The thing is wether you take these threats seriously and you get bashed for conducting a search and interrogating the family and children to assess wether they're radicalised or not or you do nothing and if an act of terrorisme happens you're bashed for not having done enough. Anyway we're losing.

    We're in the middle of a terrorist crisis in France and far from being supported by our allies we're being bashed by them, we may not have the same appreciation of La´citÚ but what I'm seeing in the american newspapers right now is like putting salt on the wound, accusing France of racism, which only helps radicalised people feel more vindicated and fuel anti-french sentiment. We're victims of terrorism, just like The US were on 09/11, I'd have hoped more compassion and understanding, but maybe that's too much to ask.

    I have more than a little problem with Macron and his politics but right now the comments that I see here just make me sad. You're not being helpful with those Robespierre references and saying we're worse than Bush Jr. I had a lot of respect for the people on this thread but what I'm seeing is not nice at all for people supposed to be humane.
    Sorry for the rant.
    The point is that France held America to account during the War on Terror in criticizing stuff like the Patriot Act and the War in Iraq. France sympathized with the 9/11 attack, the French newspaper said "we are all Americans" but they also, under Jacques Chirac and Dominique Villepin criticized US domestic and foreign policy in dealing with these threats.

    So it's in the same spirit of Chirac and Villepin that we are criticizing the Macron's government. And arresting and terrorizing 10 year old children out of suspicion they are terrorists isn't good. Even the US government under W. didn't do that.

    Yes France has witnessed horrible terrorist attacks and we stand with victims but they aren't doing a good job separating innocents and victims and the way of deradicalizing people is obviously not going to work.

    And it's absolutely right to criticize a version of secularism grounded in the 19th Century without paying attention to how things have changed, in France and elsewhere, or reckoning with the fact that the French idea of laicite, which articulates a sense of Frenchness as a national cultural identity above religious ones, was coterminous with colonialism in Algeria, in Lebanon and Syria. Obviously the idea of Frenchness on which that's grounded isn't the same as it was in the 19th Century, nor can it stay the same.

  6. #17856
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    Hi, I'm french and a little offended by what I see here.
    I made a search on the events that happened in Albertville and what the NY times fails to mention (because it's reporting only what was written in a Turkish newspaper without bothering to do their job and ask the french police) is that there were death threats against the teacher, and those last weeks there have been many death threats against many teachers. The thing is wether you take these threats seriously and you get bashed for conducting a search and interrogating the family and children to assess wether they're radicalised or not or you do nothing and if an act of terrorisme happens you're bashed for not having done enough. Anyway we're losing.

    We're in the middle of a terrorist crisis in France and far from being supported by our allies we're being bashed by them, we may not have the same appreciation of La´citÚ but what I'm seeing in the american newspapers right now is like putting salt on the wound, accusing France of racism, which only helps radicalised people feel more vindicated and fuel anti-french sentiment. We're victims of terrorism, just like The US were on 09/11, I'd have hoped more compassion and understanding, but maybe that's too much to ask.

    I have more than a little problem with Macron and his politics but right now the comments that I see here just make me sad. You're not being helpful with those Robespierre references and saying we're worse than Bush Jr. I had a lot of respect for the people on this thread but what I'm seeing is not nice at all for people supposed to be humane.
    Sorry for the rant.
    It's the same story that you have all over the world - there is systemic injustice and inequity that breeds resentment, and that resentment has a tendency to explode in outbursts of violence. And of course the only solution that the authorities have is to impose heavy handed policies to try and suppress the violence, but without doing anything to address the underlying issues that created the problem in the first place. And you really have to ask yourself why the government is imposing such draconian measures in response to a single terror attack, when it can't seem to find the same willpower to combat covid, which has killed almost 50,000 people in France, a couple orders of magnitude more than the cumulative death toll of all terror attacks in France going back as far as they've been recorded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The point is that France held America to account during the War on Terror in criticizing stuff like the Patriot Act and the War in Iraq. France sympathized with the 9/11 attack, the French newspaper said "we are all Americans" but they also, under Jacques Chirac and Dominique Villepin criticized US domestic and foreign policy in dealing with these threats.

    So it's in the same spirit of Chirac and Villepin that we are criticizing the Macron's government. And arresting and terrorizing 10 year old children out of suspicion they are terrorists isn't good. Even the US government under W. didn't do that.

    Yes France has witnessed horrible terrorist attacks and we stand with victims but they aren't doing a good job separating innocents and victims and the way of deradicalizing people is obviously not going to work.

    And it's absolutely right to criticize a version of secularism grounded in the 19th Century without paying attention to how things have changed, in France and elsewhere, or reckoning with the fact that the French idea of laicite, which articulates a sense of Frenchness as a national cultural identity above religious ones, was coterminous with colonialism in Algeria, in Lebanon and Syria. Obviously the idea of Frenchness on which that's grounded isn't the same as it was in the 19th Century, nor can it stay the same.
    In fact the Macron government took a securitary turn those last years that is frightening for me, at first to pass it's ultraliberal laws and make us lose our rights all in the name of "", "progress", what a convenient way to describe Tatcherite politics, indeed. Now it's turning against free press, protecting cops from being scrutinized, I know all that.

    What I'm saying is there is no good answer when faced with terrorism and death threats. If the search and interrogation by the cops hadn't been conducted, France would have been accused of weakness in front of radicalisation, but since they've done it, they're accused of being oppressive. It's a lose-lose situation.
    And I don't agree with your stance on La´citÚ, It should stay the same, because that's still what protects us the most from communautarism and religious ideologies, and since you're living in the US were the Evangelical conservatives have so much power, you know what I'm talking about, no?

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    It's the same story that you have all over the world - there is systemic injustice and inequity that breeds resentment, and that resentment has a tendency to explode in outbursts of violence. And of course the only solution that the authorities have is to impose heavy handed policies to try and suppress the violence, but without doing anything to address the underlying issues that created the problem in the first place. And you really have to ask yourself why the government is imposing such draconian measures in response to a single terror attack, when it can't seem to find the same willpower to combat covid, which has killed almost 50,000 people in France, a couple orders of magnitude more than the cumulative death toll of all terror attacks in France going back as far as they've been recorded.
    Well, the french shouldn't have voted for a right-wing government, yes. Just as you. No surprise here. Right-wing governments conduct right-wing politics. We have the same problems than you, we've just been able to fend them off for a little longer, but in the end we do have a far-right on the rise here too. But guess what? That's a worldwide problem, you see it everywhere in our western countries.
    The problem I see is that if the government doesn't impose drastic measures, people will go for the party that will impose them. That's the end goal of this terrorism, making people so afraid they vote for parties that will fuel the resentment against muslims so that they feel less welcome. If you have a solution, I hear you.

  9. #17859
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    In fact the Macron government took a securitary turn those last years that is frightening for me, at first to pass it's ultraliberal laws and make us lose our rights all in the name of "", "progress", what a convenient way to describe Tatcherite politics, indeed. Now it's turning against free press, protecting cops from being scrutinized, I know all that.
    And you aren't concerned? It's Macron doing this, a supposed centrist. There should be more daylight between how he runs and Le Pen.

    What I'm saying is there is no good answer when faced with terrorism and death threats.
    Northern Ireland used to have a lot of terrorism now it's at peace and you had a Good Friday Agreement to faciilitate that. So I don't think it's a case there aren't good answers.

    There weren't radical terrorist attacks in France in the Chirac and Villepin years.

    If the search and interrogation by the cops hadn't been conducted, France would have been accused of weakness in front of radicalisation, but since they've done it, they're accused of being oppressive. It's a lose-lose situation.
    Let me string up what's called "le plus petit violin du monde" about a self-created lose-lose situation that the cowardice of the Macron government found themselves in.

    And I don't agree with your stance on La´citÚ, It should stay the same, because that's still what protects us the most from communautarism and religious ideologies, and since you're living in the US were the Evangelical conservatives have so much power, you know what I'm talking about, no?
    You are conflating a bunch of stuff.

    1) Evangelical conservatives have terrible political ideas and attitudes but they aren't terrorists. The equivalent to that in France is your ultra-right Catholic hardliners.
    2) Evangelical conservatives have seen their power whittled down thanks to dialogue, political pushback and moving the public opinion to the left on issues like gay marriage and abortion and so on.

    The US Government forcing and imposing a national identity over religious identity would be an all-time terrible idea and end very badly. The thing is to end religious wars not to start them, and right now, France has found itself in one all in the name of secularism which imposes a French identity associated with White Catholic privilege essentially.

  10. #17860
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    Just to say, Macron ran as a centrist but he is not, his politics, especially economically are like Tatcher in the 80's. A wolf disguised as a sheep.

  11. #17861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So Kelly Loefller backed Qanon for nothing.
    Well, she did get to make some money by selling her stocks right before the Covid lockdown. And when it comes down to a choice between money and power, where you can only have one or the other, most Republicans will choose money.
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  12. #17862
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidfresh512 View Post
    Republicans Rewrite an Old Playbook on Disenfranchising Black Americans



    One of the main reasons black people came out in record numbers was we and other people of color were disproportionately effected by the failures of the trump administration. The GOP policies to Gerrmander in order to dilute the votes of minorities had to be overcome by massive turnout. They set it up that way.

    Now when that didn't work and trump lost, they have resorted to the suggestion that all these heavily minority voters should just be tossed aside. That they don't deserve the right to have their voices heard. Their votes counted. The republican party standing by in large part.

    All these MAGA people talking about stop the steal. Are really talking about stop Americans from having their right to vote count. It's not being given enough focus imo. The in your face nefarious attempts to so casually tell these voters who stood in long lines. Who lost businesses, family members to an unchecked pandemic that was poorly managed by this inept government. They decided to vote and render their verdict on the failed administration.

    Now we have trump and the complicit gop saying no, you don't count. Anyone supporting this is supporting yet another racist attack on minorities having a say in America.
    But hey, as Trump himself said to blacks like me when he trolled for our votes back in 2016, “What have you got to lose?” The answer is dangerously evident: our right to vote, to make our voices heard, to have a say as to what sort of government we want and the leaders we want running it. THAT is what we have to lose.
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  13. #17863
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    Oh hey, John Kerry's got a job.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  14. #17864
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Oh hey, John Kerry's got a job.
    Must be weird for Kerry that two dudes who campaigned for him and who saw him as party leader in 2004 (Obama and Biden) end up becoming his boss in 2012 and 2020.

  15. #17865
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Must be weird for Kerry that two dudes who campaigned for him and who saw him as party leader in 2004 (Obama and Biden) end up becoming his boss in 2012 and 2020.
    Considering that they regard him highly enough to give him a place in their respective administrations says a lot about them and about him. Climate Czar Kerry.
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