All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[JamesonAnders]

I agree that we should stand up to people who we think are making things worse, be they in the American Nazi Party, NRA, the Young Democratic Socialists of America, police unions, Black Lives Matter, or whatever organization.

I suspect there's money at stake in most controversies.

I suspect you are incorrect in this view. There are controversies about what causes riots, but money is not at the heart of them.

What does it mean for cops to be more accountable? Do you mean that cops should be prosecuted in situations in which we would not prosecute civilians, because the police are expected to have more training?

I expect law enforcement to be held to a higher standard, to be sure, because of what they represent. But at the very least I expect them to be held to the same standard

As for the idea that charges brought by people with bigoted beliefs should not be admissible in court, there are going to be some tough questions. How would you expect the justice system to determine whether someone is a bigot? Does this apply to every situation? If a racist man is mugged, does this mean he can't file charges?

How would you expect the Mark Furman's of the world to be treated by the justice system?

I'm curious what you think is implied.

In order to show that someone is wrong, there does need to be some kind of alternative presented. Otherwise, there is the potential argument that a deeply flawed outcome is the least-bad of several terrible choices.In order to show that someone is wrong, there does need to be some kind of alternative presented. Otherwise, there is the potential argument that a deeply flawed outcome is the least-bad of several terrible choices.

I'm curious to what you think is not implied

I do disagree with the idea that Democrats have been entirely consistent, or that they all think the same, especially to the extent that any hint otherwise merits a response of "how dare you."

No broad group of the population will be entirely consistent. Saying that, how dare you suggest that the Democratic platform has been broadly inconsistent in recent history. What is the Democratic view of the accomplishments of the Clinton administration? What is the conservative view of the Reagan or Bush administrations?

There's nothing wrong with attempting to broaden the horizons of people reading this discussion, perhaps with a link to a good source of information about how other countries handle law enforcement. But if you leave an incorrect impression about me, i will point it out.

From what I've seen, most people have a very accurate perception of you. I'm not sure you can say the same for yourself

[Electricmastro]

And to the white people out there who believe police can’t affect them and that this doesn’t concern them because they’re not black, then what should also be considered is the case of John Geer, who was a white man who was wrongfully shot to death by police. So indeed, everyone should be concerned not only for the lives of victims, but their own lives as well, even if they themselves aren’t black, as escalating corruption and bloody violence can have no limits: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/fairfa...geer-1.3042667

[shooshoomanjoe]

Victim blaming. Predictable. I think I read somewhere that the coroner found no basis for Floyd having died as a result of Chauvin’s actions, leading the Floyd family to seek a second, outside opinion.

I read that too. I believe the corner's report said there were no signs of strangulation and Floyd died of intoxicants or underlying health conditions. I can see Chauvin's attorney using this to get him off the murder charge or something. I'm sure Floyd's family will seek an independent autopsy.

[The no face guy]

Something Americans might want to consider when they go vote this fall in the 2020 election.

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/ho...-d9f17a773190/

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...ds/ar-BB14OaER

[XPac]

It is going to be another hard night. It is still daylight and protesters are already vandalizing police cars and throwing bottles at police in Chicago. What is going to happen when night comes?

These sort of riots are stupid. And the fact that it's going on during a pandemic where they are potentially endangering themselves and each other makes it doubly stupid.

[Electricmastro]

These sort of riots are stupid. And the fact that it's going on during a pandemic where they are potentially endangering themselves and each other makes it doubly stupid.

But it’s all worth it since black lives matter and matter so much that people should persevere towards improving their quality of life any way they can, even if it means challenging the corrupt cops I’m sure.

[XPac]

But it’s all worth it since black lives matter and matter so much that people should persevere towards improving their quality of life any way they can, even if it means challenging the corrupt cops I’m sure.

They're only shooting themselves in the foot. The coverage now is less about the corrupt cops and more about the rioters. They're flipping the narrative and making themselves out to be the bad eyes in the eyes of a lot of people who might be more sympathetic towards their plight otherwise.

And the fact that lives matter is a big part of the reason why it might not be a good ideal to do this during a pandemic, because the cornovirus doesn't care whether or not you're black or white. I'd be more worried about that than a corrupt police officer at this moment in time. Not to mention their family members who may be effected by their decisions here.

Don't get my wrong... I do sympathize with the movement and would 100% support laweful protests. But that's not what we're getting here.

[sammy_hansen]

These sort of riots are stupid. And the fact that it's going on during a pandemic where they are potentially endangering themselves and each other makes it doubly stupid.

Code = black violence is stupid. White violence is patriotic.

[XPac]

Code = black violence is stupid. White violence is patriotic.

Riots in the middle of a pandemic is pretty stupid across the board.

Again, the coronovirus doesn't care what color your skin is.

[sammy_hansen]

They're only shooting themselves in the foot. The coverage now is less about the corrupt cops and more about the rioters. They're flipping the narrative and making themselves out to be the bad eyes in the eyes of a lot of people who might be more sympathetic towards their plight otherwise.

And the fact that lives matter is a big part of the reason why it might not be a good ideal to do this during a pandemic, because the cornovirus doesn't care whether or not you're black or white. I'd be more worried about that than a corrupt police officer at this moment in time. Not to mention their family members who may be effected by their decisions here.

Don't get my wrong... I do sympathize with the movement and would 100% support laweful protests. But that's not what we're getting here.

What value is the law when the STATE can willfully murder black citizens for simply existing?


Let’s all sing Kumbaya and protect the status quo.

[Mister Mets]

I suspect you are incorrect in this view. There are controversies about what causes riots, but money is not at the heart of them.

This might be us talking past one another, with a slightly different view about what it means for money to be at the heart of a controversy. I don't think money is the reason people are rioting, but there are financial considerations with controversial topics.

For example, retraining police officers is going to cost some money, even if it is worthwhile. Mechanisms by which police officers could be fired would threaten their livelihoods. If businesses decide it's too risky to invest in these communities, that will hurt the employment prospects of the people who live there.

I expect law enforcement to be held to a higher standard, to be sure, because of what they represent. But at the very least I expect them to be held to the same standard



How would you expect the Mark Furman's of the world to be treated by the justice system?

A police officer caught on tape saying racist stuff, like Mark Fuhrman did, should be fired.

It generally isn't a matter for the justice system, unless he engaged in illegal behavior (excessive force, perjury, evidence tampering, etc.) Someone who does that should be prosecuted.

I'm curious to what you think is not implied

It's difficult to argue a negative, since I don't really know what someone else inferred (which typically suggests the problem isn't what I said explicitly, but what they read into it.)

In this case, it had to be pretty bad if you conclude that I have a sick mindset that should make it difficult to sleep at night.

A potential misunderstanding of an argument that alternatives should be proposed if you're going to criticize something, may be that it is tantamount to endorsing something reprehensible and vile. However, in any of those situations, there is a less bad alternative someone can propose.

No broad group of the population will be entirely consistent. Saying that, how dare you suggest that the Democratic platform has been broadly inconsistent in recent history. What is the Democratic view of the accomplishments of the Clinton administration? What is the conservative view of the Reagan or Bush administrations?

It seems to me that Democrats are divided on the accomplishments of the Clinton administration, some seeing policies as positive steps forward, and others seeing it as reprehensible.

There are progressive district attorneys, and candidates for prosecutorial positions, with different views on criminal justice policy than others in the party.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...-aren-n1033286
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/n...queens-da.html

With conservatives, it seems there's a general consensus that tough on crime policies were necessary at the time, and division about the right strategies going forward.

From what I've seen, most people have a very accurate perception of you. I'm not sure you can say the same for yourself

If I suggested that we have nothing to learn from other countries, then "Stop pretending that the world ends at our beaches and that we are doomed to being the shithole country we are." can be a fair response. If I did not say anything to the effect of the United States having nothing to learn from other countries, it's a response based on an objectively inaccurate perception.

[sammy_hansen]

Riots in the middle of a pandemic is pretty stupid across the board.

Again, the coronovirus doesn't care what color your skin is.

In both cases African-American lives are threatened by actions of the state. Coronavirus and cops are both viruses killing black Americans. When is it okay to act in self-defense? When white people deem it acceptable.


Kumbaya

[Malvolio]

How does that obese, short-tempered drug addict not have more health problems?

Who says he doesn't? Just his doctor, who obviously lies for him.

[sammy_hansen]

Several police heads across nation condemn force used before Floyd death: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...death-n1217451

Lol. How many excessive force complaints do they dismiss or sweep under the rug in their own cities though? Easy to have morals when it happens somewhere else.

[XPac]

In both cases African-American lives are threatened by actions of the state. Coronavirus and cops are both viruses killing black Americans. When is it okay to act in self-defense? When white people deem it acceptable.


Kumbaya

This is what we call natural selection. If they ultimately feel riots are worth endangering their own lives, then they get what they get. I just hope their family and close family members don't suffer for the poor decisions they make.

But ignoring for a second their own lives (because frankly if they're willing to risk it that's on them anyways), it's a poor strategy. Lawful protest is one thing, but riots during a pandemin only makes them look like the bad guys in the eyes of the world. Again, they're shooting their own message in the foot. People on the news stealing and burning down buildings makes them the face of the message... and people will have a much harder time sympathizing with that.

You can protest something without looting delivery trucks and setting local business on fire. None of that has anything to do with corrupt police. You can be passionate about something without being flat out stupid.