All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Vakanai]

Now for the spillover

6-Year-Old Boy Fatally Stabbed in Anti-Muslim Attack, Police Say

Sadly we're going to see a lot more islamaphobic and antisemitic hate crimes like this from a bunch of angry idiots too dumb to realize you can't blame an entire people for the actions of some of their number hundreds or thousands of miles away. If someone had stabbed this old fool shouting all white people must die for our people's actions over the years (I'm white) pretty sure he'd argue he had nothing to do with that ****. People just don't get it, they keep othering entire groups like either muslims or jews are some kind of monolith and all of them are the same, but only white people differ one from another as a group. Fucking bigots, I hate them.

[Vakanai]

Iran accused of threatening ‘terrified’ BBC staff in London

And Iran continues to show and prove to everyone that that government/theocracy is a true **** stain...

[Powerboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6VCF_csmDg

Sam Harris weighs in (you knew he would).

Some of his points.

Regardless of what some people keep saying, there is no occupation of Gaza. Israel is absolutely NOT perfect and there have been crimes but the occupation ended years ago.

Again, Israel is far from perfect. But, compared to what surrounds them, they are a small state in a region of moral bankrupcy by any modern definition.

Imagine if the situation was reversed, if Israel took hostages from Gaza, held them in front of themselves and used them as human shields. It's laughable in a sick way because we know what would happen. Hamas wouldn't hesitate, wouldn't send texts that there was going to be a rocket or an attack and would kill the hostages not as collateral damage but as their first goal. There is zero moral equivalency here.

[Tendrin]

It was a Reuter's Poll. I think it was on Steve Scmidt's show but only how much support for Israel there was. He didn't list that there was also almost no support for Hamas. So, people on the Liberal side are engaging in considerable deception too.

People support Palestinians, not Hamas. If you ask people if they support 'Hamas', of course they're going to say no except for some fairly rare idiots who will be blown out of proportion by the usual suspects. This is the second post in which you've conflated Hamas with the entirety of the Palestinians.

First, the claim that there is no 'occupation of Gaza' is actually a misunderstanding of the term 'occupied territories'. It's asserting that because there are no physical presence of Israeli soldiers, these territories are therefore not occupied. This is a legal designation referring to Israel's obligation to the civilian populace of these territories given it's legal hold on them:

The significance of the designation of these territories as occupied territory is that certain legal obligations fall on the occupying power under international law. Under international law there are certain laws of war governing military occupation, including the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention.[20] One of those obligations is to maintain the status quo until the signing of a peace treaty, the resolution of specific conditions outlined in a peace treaty, or the formation of a new civilian government.[21]

Israel disputes whether, and if so to what extent, it is an occupying power in relation to the Palestinian territories and as to whether Israeli settlements in these territories are in breach of Israel's obligations as an occupying power and constitute a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions and whether the settlements constitute war crimes.[22][23] In 2015, over 800,000 Israelis resided outside the 1949 Armistice Lines, constituting nearly 13% of Israel's Jewish population.[24]

Israel disputes this, sure, but of course it would. Any nation engaged in a systematic process of, let's call it, internal resettlement would do this.

Here's an article from earlier this year on Israeli settlement building:

JERUSALEM, July 13 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's religious-nationalist government has promoted a record number of housing units in settlements in the occupied West Bank in its first six months, Israeli anti-settlement watchdog Peace Now said on Thursday.

Most countries deem Jewish settlements built on land Israel occupied in a 1967 Middle East war as illegal, and their continued expansion has for decades been among the most contentious issues between Israel, the Palestinians and the international community.

Since January, Israel has advanced 12,855 settler housing units across the West Bank, said Peace Now - the highest number the group has recorded since it started tracking such activity in 2012.

"In the past six months, the only sector that Israel has vigorously promoted is the settlement enterprise," it said in a statement.

Palestinian leaders have sought to establish an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital. They say settlements cut Palestinian communities from each other and undermine hopes of a viable state.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...og-2023-07-13/

Saying 'Israel is not perfect' is deeply understating the scope of the long-terrm damage to peace that the Netanyahu government and the broader right-wing settler movement that supports it, backed by US evangelicals who seek 'greater Israel' as part of a pursuit of enabling an ultimately anti-semitic biblical prophecy, has done, to say nothing of the the lives of Palestinians who've seen their homes bulldozed to make room for it.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Sadly we're going to see a lot more islamaphobic and antisemitic hate crimes like this from a bunch of angry idiots too dumb to realize you can't blame an entire people for the actions of some of their number hundreds or thousands of miles away. If someone had stabbed this old fool shouting all white people must die for our people's actions over the years (I'm white) pretty sure he'd argue he had nothing to do with that ****. People just don't get it, they keep othering entire groups like either muslims or jews are some kind of monolith and all of them are the same, but only white people differ one from another as a group. Fucking bigots, I hate them.

I heard a story that the lunatic who murdered that poor little kid was addicted to watching Faux News according to his wife. Can't say that surprises me even a little bit.

[achilles]

Not all news is horrific and upsetting. I find this story rather charming.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20231017_22/

I love that the Japanese would bother to do that. Good on 'em.

[hyped78]

People support Palestinians, not Hamas. If you ask people if they support 'Hamas', of course they're going to say no except for some fairly rare idiots who will be blown out of proportion by the usual suspects. This is the second post in which you've conflated Hamas with the entirety of the Palestinians.

First, the claim that there is no 'occupation of Gaza' is actually a misunderstanding of the term 'occupied territories'. It's asserting that because there are no physical presence of Israeli soldiers, these territories are therefore not occupied. This is a legal designation referring to Israel's obligation to the civilian populace of these territories given it's legal hold on them:



Israel disputes this, sure, but of course it would. Any nation engaged in a systematic process of, let's call it, internal resettlement would do this.

Here's an article from earlier this year on Israeli settlement building:





https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...og-2023-07-13/

Saying 'Israel is not perfect' is deeply understating the scope of the long-terrm damage to peace that the Netanyahu government and the broader right-wing settler movement that supports it, backed by US evangelicals who seek 'greater Israel' as part of a pursuit of enabling an ultimately anti-semitic biblical prophecy, has done, to say nothing of the the lives of Palestinians who've seen their homes bulldozed to make room for it.

Apologies but there is a lot of, like mentioned on Catlady's Guardian article, victim blaming here.

Israel was attacked by Hamas out of Gaza. Israel completely pulled out of Gaza 17 years ago (a right-wing government did that, as you seem to be keen to make this a right-left thing). 17 years ago.

Now, I don't agree with the settler expansion n the West Bank (which isn't new, started in 1967 after Israel won the war) and I think that's wrong but those two territories (Gaza and the West Bank) are geographically separate and governed by separate entities.

It is also important to understand that those two territories are within the state of Israel because Israel defended itself against an aggression from all its neighbors (who were aligned with the communists/ Soviet Union) in the 1967 War. Later, Israel gave back the Golan Heights and Sinai, as agreed with its neighbors.

[hyped78]

Police in Belgium have killed the islamic terrorist who shot dead two Swedes yesterday in Brussels:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67131128

[CaptainEurope]

It's official, PiS lost in Poland.

[hyped78]

It's official, PiS lost in Poland.

And let it be known that they tried all the dirty tricks in the book, for example having a referendum on illegal migration the same day of the vote

I hope Tusk can form a stable majority

[Tendrin]

Apologies but there is a lot of, like mentioned on Catlady's Guardian article, victim blaming here.

No. There isn't. There *is* a lot of blame to go around on both sides, however, for the overall conflict.

Israel was attacked by Hamas out of Gaza. Israel completely pulled out of Gaza 17 years ago (a right-wing government did that, as you seem to be keen to make this a right-left thing). 17 years ago.

Yes, it pulled soldiers out of Gaza. This changes nothing whether or not its regarded as occupied territories subject to the administration of Israel. Which they are. Which was my point. Which is why going 'AKTUALLY THEY AREN't OCCUPIED!!!' isn't the big 'gotcha' that it seems to posed as. It also does not change the fact that the Palestinians remain *extremely* restricted by Israel policies. You can justify those policies in the name of security, but to pretend that kind of policy won't have consequences down the line is to be willfully blind.

Now, I don't agree with the settler expansion n the West Bank (which isn't new, started in 1967 after Israel won the war) and I think that's wrong but those two territories (Gaza and the West Bank) are geographically separate and governed by separate entities.

These are disputed lands. Israel intends to build settlements there to make any final peace negotiation one where they have claim to more land as a matter of 'facts on the ground'. This also has the benefit of helping ensure the backing of the Israeli settler movement of right-wing, nationalist governments, while ensuring that any subsequent left wing governments less sympathetic to the Israeli settler movement will be less likely to poke the bear. Recognizing this isn't victim blaming, it's looking at how the needs of Israeli politicians to gain backing from voter constituencies have shaped the moment we're in. It's weird that you're willing to ignore this while holding onto a single vote for Hamas in 2006 as defining the Palestinian populace of Gaza.

It is also important to understand that those two territories are within the state of Israel because Israel defended itself against an aggression from all its neighbors (who were aligned with the communists/ Soviet Union) in the 1967 War. Later, Israel gave back the Golan Heights and Sinai, as agreed with its neighbors.

Sure. That does not change that these are occupied territories.

[achilles]

You know, it seems to me that if you don't want to be blockaded in your territory by your more powerful neighbor, you probably should stop constantly trying to murder them. Maybe that's just me. I do wonder how it's possible to occupy a place without actually being there, but whatever.

[Tendrin]

You know, it seems to me that if you don't want to be blockaded in your territory by your more powerful neighbor, you probably should stop constantly trying to murder them. Maybe that's just me. I do wonder how it's possible to occupy a place without actually being there, but whatever.

It's a legal definition rooted in the ongoing blockade, I believe, by international law in so far as Gaza is concerned. With regards to the west bank, that's another matter.

If you've got a problem with it, take it up with them.

[hyped78]

No. There isn't. There *is* a lot of blame to go around on both sides, however, for the overall conflict.

Yes, it pulled soldiers out of Gaza. This changes nothing whether or not its regarded as occupied territories subject to the administration of Israel. Which they are. Which was my point. Which is why going 'AKTUALLY THEY AREN't OCCUPIED!!!' isn't the big 'gotcha' that it seems to posed as. It also does not change the fact that the Palestinians remain *extremely* restricted by Israel policies. You can justify those policies in the name of security, but to pretend that kind of policy won't have consequences down the line is to be willfully blind.

These are disputed lands. Israel intends to build settlements there to make any final peace negotiation one where they have claim to more land as a matter of 'facts on the ground'. This also has the benefit of helping ensure the backing of the Israeli settler movement of right-wing, nationalist governments, while ensuring that any subsequent left wing governments less sympathetic to the Israeli settler movement will be less likely to poke the bear. Recognizing this isn't victim blaming, it's looking at how the needs of Israeli politicians to gain backing from voter constituencies have shaped the moment we're in. It's weird that you're willing to ignore this while holding onto a single vote for Hamas in 2006 as defining the Palestinian populace of Gaza.

Sure. That does not change that these are occupied territories.

I agree that there's a lot of blame to go around on both sides but your first post essentially targeted Israel. Your new post is more balanced.

"Yes, it pulled soldiers out of Gaza" - it didn't just pull soldiers out of Gaza. It disassembled all settlements in Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...ment_from_Gaza:
"In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip. The disengagement was proposed in 2003 by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government in June 2004, and approved by the Knesset in February 2005 as the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law. It was implemented in August 2005 and completed in September 2005. The settlers who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the 15 August 2005 deadline were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days. The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by 12 September 2005."



"Palestinians remain *extremely* restricted by Israel policies" - they do and this is a direct response to the Intifadas and the suicide bombings. Of course this breeds resentment but countries need to protect themselves. But the "restriction" ignores that, for example, Israel supplies most of the electricity to Gaza, among other things.

"These are disputed lands" - very true

"It's weird that you're willing to ignore this while holding onto a single vote for Hamas in 2006 as defining the Palestinian populace of Gaza." - a single vote because Palestinians don't like to hold elections, both in Gaza and in the West Bank (Abbas rules as President in the West Bank also without elections for a long time). Israel holds democratic elections. There's a world of difference.

"Sure. That does not change that these are occupied territories." - if Israel hadn't been attacked (more than once)...

Also, it seems pretty obvious that the former "owner" of Gaza, Egypt, doesn't want it back.

[useridgoeshere]

People support Palestinians, not Hamas. If you ask people if they support 'Hamas', of course they're going to say no ...

Just for clarification, the Reuters poll mention Hamas but asked about Palestinians. It’s potentially biasing, but they also only asked about Israel targeting civilians and not the reverse.The question was should the US … support the Israelis position (41% yes), the Palestinians position (2% yes). In the same poll, people didn’t want civilians to be killed. And younger people wanted the US to be a neutral mediator, but still did not think the US should support the Palestinians position.

Edited to just put the question in.