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  1. #2956
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Was just on my way to post that. Beat me to it, Tami!

  2. #2957
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Using military force this way is behind some good things - like enforcing integration - but also lurks behind darker things as well. This is one of those situation where it s a tool and weapon that I would trust in the hands of others, but fear in the hands of Trump.

    I mean, you're not wrong about this. The presence of the military was invaluable to those efforts, to say nothing of protection southern blacks in the Reconstruction era.

    Unfortunately, the only minority that this administration is interested in protecting is minority rule.

  3. #2958
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not referring to peaceful protests as riots... I'm referring to the riots as riots. Peaceful protests and riots aren't interchangable. One is lawful and one is not. Big difference.

    I've said MANY times in this thread that the rioters are just criminals taking advantage of the protest to commit crimes and steal stuff. It's not all I'm concerned with... but it's what I'm most concerned with. They're the ones who need to be dealt with. Burning down buildings and murdering innocent people obviously isn't peaceful protest.

    I will say I have some issues with the peaceful protest in regards to it violating social distancing... that's an issue which many people are ignoring and that will come back to haunt all of us down the line. But that's not the MOST immediate problem which needs to be addressed.
    I'm starting to see where we're our differences of opinion are stemming from. You think the rioters are a separate group form the peaceful protesters, I think the rioters and the peaceful protesters are the same people. The police keep attacking peaceful protests unprovoked by claiming they're rioting when they aren't, and constantly being attacked by the police eventually provokes the protesters to actually riot. At least, that's the way it looks to me.

    So when you say using violence to put down the riots is justified, it ends up sounding like you're saying the violence that provoked the riots is also justified. That's what wasn't making sense to me, because that's absurd it goes without saying.

    But yeah, to me it looks like the police are provoking people to riot with violence and prescribing more violence as the only cure. While I would say less violence would be the cure, and that's why I oppose the military interfering. That's my position.

  4. #2959
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    I'm starting to see where we're our differences of opinion are stemming from. You think the rioters are a separate group form the peaceful protesters, I think the rioters and the peaceful protesters are the same people. The police keep attacking peaceful protests unprovoked by claiming they're rioting when they aren't, and constantly being attacked by the police eventually provokes the protesters to actually riot. At least, that's the way it looks to me.

    So when you say using violence to put down the riots is justified, it ends up sounding like you're saying the violence that provoked the riots is also justified. That's what wasn't making sense to me, because that's absurd it goes without saying.

    But yeah, to me it looks like the police are provoking people to riot with violence and prescribing more violence as the only cure. While I would say less violence would be the cure, and that's why I oppose the military interfering. That's my position.
    Same as mine. Its incredibly apparent from the MANY MANY examples of footage that the US Police are attacking peaceful protesters brutally with no need alao committing acts that (if this were a war) would break the geneva convention.

    Also setting up the violence to occur (putting pallets of bricks out) and ensuring violence happens (protesters walking home post curfew being kettled then beaten, if they'd just been left alone nothing would have happened)

  5. #2960
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Same as mine. Its incredibly apparent from the MANY MANY examples of footage that the US Police are attacking peaceful protesters brutally with no need alao committing acts that (if this were a war) would break the geneva convention.

    Also setting up the violence to occur (putting pallets of bricks out) and ensuring violence happens (protesters walking home post curfew being kettled then beaten, if they'd just been left alone nothing would have happened)
    There's more options available than that. You're right that that's occurring, however, criminals taking advantage to steal things and cause chaos, saboteurs from the police, and violent anarchists exploiting the protests to engage in social unrest are all plausible explanation for rioters.

  6. #2961
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    NYC Mayor Bill De Blasio Enforces Curfew Again, Setting Up Another Night Of Police Assaults

    As soon as 8 p.m. struck, NYPD officers began to arrest, charge and beat nonviolent protesters. There was a similar curfew here in Philly and there wasn't anything in the way of that chaos.

    **********

    Trump Shares Letter Saying White House Protesters Are ‘Terrorists’

    The letter also attacks former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis for criticizing the president. To paraphrase an old saying: One man's terrorist is another man's seeker of justice.

    **********

    Esper Reverses Course Again, Orders Troops Out Of D.C.

    This is the second time this week he’s made the call and broken from Trump on the need for a military response to the anti-racism protests. Over/under on when Esper is sent packing by Trump: I'd say Sunday.

    **********

    Civil Rights Groups Sue Trump After Violent Dispersal Of Protesters Outside White House

    The case, filed by the ACLU on behalf of Black Lives Matter and protesters, called police tactics a “frankly criminal attack.”

    **********

    Police Budgets Have Long Been Untouchable. That Could Change.

    Massive law enforcement budgets have only increased in recent years. Activists are calling to defund the police and invest that money into communities of color.

    **********

    2020 Isn’t 1968 And Donald Trump Isn’t Richard Nixon

    In certain ways, 2020 feels a lot like 1968. Federal troops and local police are clashing with Black people sick of police brutality and discrimination. Americans are dying in massive, alarming numbers ― then, in the Vietnam war; now, as the coronavirus pandemic spreads across the nation. Americans are angry.

    And President Donald Trump, in his bid for reelection, is echoing the same language Richard Nixon used in his successful 1968 presidential campaign.

    “I am your president of law and order,” Trump said Monday on the South Lawn of the White House as the sound of peaceful protesters being violently dispersed with pepper pellets, smoke grenades, flash-bangs and baton-wielding military police echoed in the background.

    He declared he would be the voice of the “Silent Majority” ― a favorite Nixon phrase parroted by Trump since he began his first presidential campaign in 2015. Now, it’s a nod to those who want the police to start cracking heads to quell widespread tumult, and Trump hopes to ride that wave of “law and order” backlash to reelection.

    But for all of the similarities, 2020 isn’t 1968. The electorate has changed. Trump’s supporters are neither silent, nor a majority. And Trump ― who polling shows is an unpopular president ― isn’t in the same position in 2020 that Nixon was in 1968. Where Nixon ― seeking the White House ― offered himself as a solution to unrest and mismanagement, Trump ― the incumbent ― is its culprit.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  7. #2962
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCAll View Post
    I'm starting to see where we're our differences of opinion are stemming from. You think the rioters are a separate group form the peaceful protesters, I think the rioters and the peaceful protesters are the same people. The police keep attacking peaceful protests unprovoked by claiming they're rioting when they aren't, and constantly being attacked by the police eventually provokes the protesters to actually riot. At least, that's the way it looks to me.

    So when you say using violence to put down the riots is justified, it ends up sounding like you're saying the violence that provoked the riots is also justified. That's what wasn't making sense to me, because that's absurd it goes without saying.

    But yeah, to me it looks like the police are provoking people to riot with violence and prescribing more violence as the only cure. While I would say less violence would be the cure, and that's why I oppose the military interfering. That's my position.
    If a person attacks a police officer or a police car, that might be a response to getting provoked by police. When a rioter loots and murders a completely innocent person who has absolutely nothing to do with social justice, that's just a criminal using the riots to get free stuff.

    Many of these business are owned by minority people from their own community. Why target innocent people in your community if you're being provoked by the police? To me that's just using it as an excuse to commit crimes.

  8. #2963
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If a person attacks a police officer or a police car, that might be a response to getting provoked by police. When a rioter loots and murders a completely innocent person who has absolutely nothing to do with social justice, that's just a criminal using the riots to get free stuff.

    Many of these business are owned by minority people from their own community. Why target innocent people in your community if you're being provoked by the police? To me that's just using it as an excuse to commit crimes.
    Everyone already knows that and many "minority" leaders have already spoken out about it.

    The overwhelming vast majority of the protests are peaceful -- outside of violence initiated by the police.

    The real question is why you personally feel the need to focus almost exclusively on the "riots" and not what caused this in the first place.



    Namely cops abusing and killing black people without consequence.

    Not really a question though since most already know the answer.

    It's clear from your posts what you think of the "minorities" you keep complaining about given your repeated focus on "looters" and "rioters".

    And complete lack of discussion regarding the reason why the protests and uprisings began in the first place.

    Namely white supremacy and those in positions of power who enforce it -- which obviously doesn't bother some as much as others.

    It's also a good reminder of why many black people don't bother even bother trying to discuss these issues with those who aren't black.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-05-2020 at 04:16 AM.

  9. #2964
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    Telling that we see similar complaints when "non-minorites" loot and riot in their "own neighborhoods" over sports games and pumpkin festivals.



    "CBC News reported that the destruction caused by the rioters was worse than the riot that followed the Canucks loss in Game 7 of the 1994 Stanley Cup Finals, particularly the looting aspects. Early estimates suggested the losses due to vandalism, theft, and damage to property to be nearly $4.2 million. Several large-scale stores such as London Drugs, The Bay, Sears Canada and Future Shop were among many that were looted."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_V...anley_Cup_riot

    -----

    Yet no one tries to paint all of them with the same brush.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-05-2020 at 05:04 AM.

  10. #2965
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  11. #2966
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Everyone already knows that -- nearly no one supports the looting.

    The real question is why you feel the need to focus almost exclusively on that and not what caused this in the first place.



    Namely cops abusing and killing black people without consequence.

    Not really a question though since most already know the answer.

    It's clear from your posts just how much you care about the "minorities" you keep complaining about since all you talk about are "looters".
    I focus on the looting, because that's the aspect of this that bothers me the most.

    Firstly for the obvious reason that people are being robbed, having their homes burned down, and even murdered. That should speak for itself. And the fact that many of these people are minority business owners shouldn't be ignored. It's occuring during a pandemic, where plenty of small business are already suffering. They're the biggest tradegy of this IMO because they're not being harmed fighting rioters or police... they're being harmed simply because criminals want free stuff. They have nothing to do with any of it.

    Secondly this bothers me because the rioting has the potential for Trump to invoke the Insurrection act without the invitation of the state government... and that scares me for a variety of reasons. Not just the obvious, but the potential political ramifications of it.

    But on a purely personal level, it bothers me as a guy who at one time was a pretty active protestor. In college I helped organize dozens of peaceful protests which ended up getting hijacked by criminals who used them to commit crimes. It brought down the police on us, got us negative media attention, and ultimately derailed what we were trying to accomplish. It turns what we hope was going to be a powerful political message into something ugly.

    The riot aspect ultimately is the most immediat concern to deal with. That needs to be stopped first because the underlying issues can be dealt with and any real progress can be made.

  12. #2967
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I focus on the looting, because that's the aspect of this that bothers me the most.
    You've already it abundantly clear that you care more about occasional "looting" than police officers abusing and killing black people for decades.

    There's nothing to be gained by continually focusing on the negative outside of repeatedly painting the protests in a negative light.

    People know its a problem, nearly everyone -- including Obama -- has addressed it, and there's no reason to keep harping on it.

    Address the cause (police brutality) if you want to end the effect (uprisings -- aka "riots").

    Again though -- you've already made it clear that said police violence doesn't bother you enough to do so.

    It "bothers me the most" that cops have harassed me repeatedly in the past, have pointed a gun at my unarmed father's back before shooting into the air after my mother screamed at them not to shoot him right in front of us, and have killed and abused thousands of black people outside of the law, while ignoring and even attacking "non-violent" protests.

    In that respect, it's obvious that we have completely different priorities.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-05-2020 at 04:33 AM.

  13. #2968
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    You've already made that abundantly clear.

    There's nothing to be gained by continually focusing on it outside of painting the protests in a negative light.
    So the people who made their feelings about police brutality clear don't need to discuss that any further on the thread?

    I'll stop talking about it when it stops being an issue (which hopefully will be very soon), just as others will likely continue to discuss police brutality when it stops being an issue (which unforunately will not be for a very very long time if ever). It's a freaking discussion board... that's how it works.

    It's a valid point of discussion given what's going on right now. If you feel otherwise you are of course free to discuss whatever else you might want.

    As far as painting the protest in a negative light... I have gone out of my way to try an argue that the rioters aren't the same people as the people peacefully protsting for social justice (though some clearly disagree with me on that). They're just a small group of criminals trying to use the protests as cover to steal, burn down buildings and commit murder. The victims of those crimes deserve that aspect of the story to be told rather than buried... but that's not the same thing as arguing the protest itself is responsible. Again, it's merely a bunch of idiots using the protest as cover.

    I will own up to the fact that I am putting the protest in a negative light in regards to the coronovirus though. I DO believe people ignroing social distancing will come at a cost we all will end up paying down the line. And I'm happy to keep repeating that in HOPES people will try and be safer about it. So yeah... if you wanna hit me on painting the protest in a negative light in THAT regard, I'll own it. But the riots, not so much since I've been saying over and over again that the protestors aren't the rioters... they're victims of the rioters if anything since they're just screwing up what the peaceful protestors are trying to do.
    Last edited by XPac; 06-05-2020 at 04:33 AM.

  14. #2969
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    So the people who made their feelings about police brutality clear don't need to discuss that any further on the thread?
    Again -- I'm not going to waste time arguing with you for reasons already mentioned.

    Just know that the more you focus on "looters" the more it shows how little you care about solving the cause of the problem.

    As this point you're basically just a Fox News mouthpiece spouting out rhetoric we've all seen and heard before.

  15. #2970
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    I could get your responses from a text generator X-Pac.

    Loot/Riot/Covid etc

    Everyone is aware, everyone is HIDEOUSLY aware. But the people have had enough of being murdered with impunity that their willing to risk the virus for a just cause (haircuts aint that).

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