1. #23326
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    20,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    I'm not claiming it's a regular court case. It's actually of greater importance. It affects the entire country.

    ...
    Sure.

    That said, it is almost completely "Apple..."/"Orange..."

    In the same way that the person being impeached doesn't have the exact same rights that the accused would have in a criminal trial, it works differently in this instance because it is a fundamentally "Political..." mechanism.

  2. #23327
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    13,168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Worth noting that Sanders had a more realistic approach to what was obviously going to come to pass.

    Might be time for Biden to discuss this approach with him.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #23328
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,596

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    At some point if fit for office you have to show some guts surely.

    Anonymous votes do have disadvantages..it allows people to get away with voting in ways that might be against their proclaimed public stance.

    The next time elections came round the electorate would not really know the true voting record.

    Accountability to the public would be reduced...surely undesirable in a democracy.
    Anonymous votes goes against the entire principle of representative democracy. In Representative Democracy, you vote for a candidate for a seat, that candidate represents your constitutency at the government on your behalf. If your candidate votes anonymously, how will it ever be possible to know what the candidate stands for, what their record is, and so on.

    Anonymous votes for elected representatives is license for cowardice, and it simply ensures that no politician will be held accountable.

    If we want to have anonymous votes then what we should be doing is annul representative democracy and go to sortition, i.e. where every individual citizen votes on referendum. And those referendums become legislation. Cut out the middle-man (and yes some people in the real world are proposing this, it's a favorite of the anarcho-syndicalist set especially).

    So no...let the Republicans vote however they will, for whatever reasons they have. Even if we don't get the result we want, the party at least will be put on notice and called to order for where it stands.

  4. #23329
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Sure.

    That said, it is almost completely "Apple..."/"Orange..."

    In the same way that the person being impeached doesn't have the exact same rights that the accused would have in a criminal trial, it works differently in this instance because it is a fundamentally "Political..." mechanism.
    Ok. I'll restate that I never said it was the same as a regular criminal trial.
    Feel free to keep listing the ways it's not the same though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Anonymous votes goes against the entire principle of representative democracy. In Representative Democracy, you vote for a candidate for a seat, that candidate represents your constitutency at the government on your behalf. If your candidate votes anonymously, how will it ever be possible to know what the candidate stands for, what their record is, and so on.

    Anonymous votes for elected representatives is license for cowardice, and it simply ensures that no politician will be held accountable.

    If we want to have anonymous votes then what we should be doing is annul representative democracy and go to sortition, i.e. where every individual citizen votes on referendum. And those referendums become legislation. Cut out the middle-man (and yes some people in the real world are proposing this, it's a favorite of the anarcho-syndicalist set especially).

    So no...let the Republicans vote however they will, for whatever reasons they have. Even if we don't get the result we want, the party at least will be put on notice and called to order for where it stands.
    I'll restate that it would not be for every single vote.
    Some matters are too important for the representative to be subjected to party influence, especially when it concerns an impeachment vote for a President of their own party.
    In past situations, the party leadership approached the President and asked him to resign or face an unfavorable vote. This current group does not have the courage or level of integrity required to do that. Allowances must be made for that lack of courage in order to get a fair vote.
    Last edited by ChadH; 01-23-2021 at 04:11 PM.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  5. #23330
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    20,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Ok. I'll restate that I never said it was the same as a regular criminal trial.
    Feel free to keep listing the ways it's not the same though.
    Yet you are seemingly disappointed with the fact that it won't function more like a regular criminal trial.

    Which is totally understandable.

    All that said, it is a fundamentally "Political..." mechanism as far as getting anything like actual accountability. It's a drag, but it's the degree of accountability that there is.

  6. #23331
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Yet you are seemingly disappointed with the fact that it won't function more like a regular criminal trial.

    Which is totally understandable.

    All that said, it is a fundamentally "Political..." mechanism as far as getting anything like actual accountability. It's a drag, but it's the degree of accountability that there is.
    Nope. I'm disappointed that a matter of such importance is relegated to the average level of partisan fakery which has eroded the publics faith in the democratic system.
    The last thing the country needs is another sham like we endured at his first impeachment. Had the vote been anonymous then the outcome may have been different.
    I'm merely suggesting a different approach since the standard has proven to be basically worthless.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  7. #23332
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post


    So Mr. President how’s the whole unity thing going?

    Does anyone here really believe the GOP is going to work with Biden and not do anything they can to stifle his agenda at every level with the filibuster? I wish I could be that naive....
    It was likely an olive branch he knew they would slap away.

    The common conservative is viciously slapping it away too. They feel that's what the democrats did to Trump. Yeah, I know. For instance, when Trump lied and said Covid was a hoax, perpetuated bigotry, made up voter fraud and tried to overthrow a lawful election, the evil democrats called him on it. I guess, in conservative minds, they threw unity back in Trump's face over and over.

    The Republicans will try to filibuster anything that might make the Democrats look good no matter the effect on people.
    Power with Girl is better.

  8. #23333
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    20,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Nope. I'm disappointed that a matter of such importance is relegated to the average level of partisan fakery which has eroded the publics faith in the democratic system.
    The last thing the country needs is another sham like we endured at his first impeachment. Had the vote been anonymous then the outcome may have been different.
    I'm merely suggesting a different approach since the standard has proven to be basically worthless.
    On the one hand?

    Yeah. I guess that's possible.

    On the other hand?

    We live in a country where no sitting President has ever been successfully removed by the mechanism we are talking about. Past that, a vote that no one had to put their name on isn't really likely to get a politician to stop being a politician.

    If anything?

    It seems like it would be just as likely to give them cover for deciding not to remove someone because they would never have to do anything like answering for it.

  9. #23334
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,596

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    I'll restate that it would not be for every sinigle vote.
    How would one decide which vote gets to be anonymous, and who gets to decide that?

    Logically it would be the Sen. Maj. Leader but Schumer has more incentive to humiliate the GOP and have their records stained with defending and acquitting a fascist, while the Democrat Senators are roaring to have the vote to impeachment/conviction on their record.

    Mitt Romney got to make history when he voted to convict in the First Impeachment, becoming the first Senator to vote to convict a President of his own party. That's forever and something that will never be taken from him. Anonymous voting would ruin that.

    Some matters are too important for the representative to be subjected to party influence, especially when it refers to an impeachment vote for a President of their own party.
    Anonymous voting isn't going to erode party influence, what it will do is make that invisible and less transparent than it is now.

    In past situations, the party leadership approached the President and asked him to resign or face an unfavorable vote.
    You say situations in the plural...the only time that happened was Richard Nixon and even then GOP members of the US Senate and the HR, went public in condemning Nixon, and we know which GOP convinced Nixon to fall on his sword.

    Allowances must be made for that lack of courage in order to get a fair vote.
    That sounds a little totalitarian in terms of wanting to control and police all human failings. The fact is Democracy can never entirely totally account for human error, human failing, human mistakes. What it can do is put it on record and make it visible and shine daylight on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    The last thing the country needs is another sham like we endured at his first impeachment. Had the vote been anonymous then the outcome may have been different.
    It wouldn't be.

    Brexit for instance had anonymous voting technically as all referendums but it became clear who voted for Brexit and who didn't in any case.

  10. #23335
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,353

    Default

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgdhp

    QAnon shaman says he committed the crimes he did on January 6th only because he expected Trump to pardon him.
    Power with Girl is better.

  11. #23336
    Wanda & Ribrianne~4~Life! CJStriker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    10,872

    Lightbulb

    Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”
    ~~ Brianne De Chateau ~ Episode 102, of Dragon Ball Super!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyHGXMH6HB0
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Come Join and Learn about Wanda Maximoff at: The Scarlet Witch Appreciation Thread!

  12. #23337
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    23,445

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    It was likely an olive branch he knew they would slap away.

    The common conservative is viciously slapping it away too. They feel that's what the democrats did to Trump. Yeah, I know. For instance, when Trump lied and said Covid was a hoax, perpetuated bigotry, made up voter fraud and tried to overthrow a lawful election, the evil democrats called him on it. I guess, in conservative minds, they threw unity back in Trump's face over and over.

    The Republicans will try to filibuster anything that might make the Democrats look good no matter the effect on people.
    And those very people Republicans represent are perfectly fine with being fucked over as long as the evil Democrats end up screwed.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  13. #23338
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,033

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgdhp

    QAnon shaman says he committed the crimes he did on January 6th only because he expected Trump to pardon him.
    Enough comments like that from people, or their Lawyers, regarding Trump's role in this and anyone in the Senate who doesn't convict Trump on the Impeachment is going to be labeled a co-conspirator.
    Original join date: 11/23/2004
    Eclectic Connoisseur of all things written, drawn or imaginatively created.

  14. #23339
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How would one decide which vote gets to be anonymous, and who gets to decide that?

    Logically it would be the Sen. Maj. Leader but Schumer has more incentive to humiliate the GOP and have their records stained with defending and acquitting a fascist, while the Democrat Senators are roaring to have the vote to impeachment/conviction on their record.

    Mitt Romney got to make history when he voted to convict in the First Impeachment, becoming the first Senator to vote to convict a President of his own party. That's forever and something that will never be taken from him. Anonymous voting would ruin that.



    Anonymous voting isn't going to erode party influence, what it will do is make that invisible and less transparent than it is now.



    You say situations in the plural...the only time that happened was Richard Nixon and even then GOP members of the US Senate and the HR, went public in condemning Nixon, and we know which GOP convinced Nixon to fall on his sword.



    That sounds a little totalitarian in terms of wanting to control and police all human failings. The fact is Democracy can never entirely totally account for human error, human failing, human mistakes. What it can do is put it on record and make it visible and shine daylight on that.



    It wouldn't be.

    Brexit for instance had anonymous voting technically as all referendums but it became clear who voted for Brexit and who didn't in any case.
    I think you're reading a lot into my comments that isn't actually there.
    I'm saying for this impeachment vote, I think the outcome would be fairer if the votes are anonymous. No more than that.
    Transparency in this case isn't desirable as it would influence representatives' votes.
    I'm not advocating policing all human failings. I'm saying an anonymous vote may mitigate partisanship in this one, single case.
    This isn't Brexit nor is it the UK. That example doesn't apply.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  15. #23340
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    20,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post


    So Mr. President how’s the whole unity thing going?

    Does anyone here really believe the GOP is going to work with Biden and not do anything they can to stifle his agenda at every level with the filibuster? I wish I could be that naive....
    To circle back around to this for a second...

    Folks have pointed out that Pelosi should have put it on Mitch back when there was an election to create a limited degree of leverage on Republicans.

    The result of deciding not to do so is that now you can be all but certain that getting that two thousand dollar total will be difficult, if not impossible to do.

    Never mind the months that will be hard on John/Jane Public in the time until you might be able to get it done.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •