1. #23341
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Ok. I'll restate that I never said it was the same as a regular criminal trial.
    Feel free to keep listing the ways it's not the same though.



    I'll restate that it would not be for every single vote.
    Some matters are too important for the representative to be subjected to party influence, especially when it concerns an impeachment vote for a President of their own party.
    In past situations, the party leadership approached the President and asked him to resign or face an unfavorable vote. This current group does not have the courage or level of integrity required to do that. Allowances must be made for that lack of courage in order to get a fair vote.
    I can see the need to be careful.

    The only situation I can think of the moment where legislature votes anonymously for intraparty decisions, like votes for new members of leadership.

    Going into anonymous votes can be abused, allowing for votes that are unpopular and bad (pay raises for Congress, limits on journalists, expulsion of a member who criticized her colleagues.)

    There may be some ways to get around it. If a majority vote were needed to get an anonymous vote, that requires some level of popular support for the decision.
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  2. #23342
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    I think you're reading a lot into my comments that isn't actually there.
    I get that the points and scope I am framing it, isn't what you intend. I get that. I'm not attacking you at all, or at least that's not my intention. However, I am pointing out that under the present situation, I don't think it's practical, actionable, or desirable. .

    I'm saying for this impeachment vote, I think the outcome would be fairer if the votes are anonymous. No more than that.
    Transparency in this case isn't desirable as it would influence representatives' votes.
    I'm not advocating policing all human failings. I'm saying an anonymous vote may mitigate partisanship in this one, single case.
    This isn't Brexit nor is it the UK. That example doesn't apply.
    Let's take another example then. During the French Revolution you had the trial to vote on King Louis XVI's guilt in conspiracy, treachery, and instigating a war to overturn the revolution, while also breaking his oath that he had sworn publicly on the constitution of the original constitutional monarchy system.

    That trial had consensus that Louis XVI was absolutely guilty of treason of civil war and breaking the oath, they found documents, letters, and other stuff confirming it. But what nobody was entirely sure of was whether to vote on execution or not, or to vote on immediate execution or execution but with delays. The Jacobin party argued that the King was a danger to the Revolution and someone who has every interest and every desire to stab everyone in the back for his own power.

    During this trial, one member proposed to put the decision to execute the King on popular referendum. This would make the judgment on the King, anonymous, subject to popular will, and be binding, or so they argued. However others shouted this down by arguing that doing so would effectively be passing the buck to the citizens, would essentially foment civil war since depending on the margin, one set of voters would look at their neighbors and see someone who voted to murder a King (in a time when the largely Catholic France bought into Divine Right of Kings and believed that the King was God's representative on earth and so on), and it would essentially mark the people's representatives as a bunch of cowards who didn't have the guts to put their name on a cause, and take the heat on a controversial decision. (There was also the practical issues that a large chunk of the population was illiterate, newspapers were largely available in major cities, the logistics of arranging a referendum on that scale wasn't entirely there in the 1790s).

    [I recommend David P. Jordan's The King's Trial and yes I did do several courses in History in college].

    So again, this anonymous voting thing is just antithetical, and it's not likely to produce the result you want in any case. It could also be the case, that the Republicans who seem to lean to convicting Trump like say Romney or Ben Sasse, under anonymous voting, might vote to acquit. Maybe some red-state dems like Manchin will be tempted too.

  3. #23343
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    One more for all of us.

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    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    One more for all of us.

    Bernie as Allfather Odin is a wrinkle I didn't think to expect.

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    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    One more for all of us.

    Looks like Creel is about to make a BIG mistake by throwing down with All-Father Bernie!
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  6. #23346
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    This Bernie meme idolatry is unsettling. He's been getting this ever since he ran for present in '16 turning him from a politician into a deity. You'd think the left would remember the last time someone did this on the right, we just booted that guy out of the White House. It's wrong to follow in their footsteps of making politicians into celebrities.

  7. #23347
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This Bernie meme idolatry is unsettling. He's been getting this ever since he ran for present in '16 turning him from a politician into a deity. You'd think the left would remember the last time someone did this on the right, we just booted that guy out of the White House. It's wrong to follow in their footsteps of making politicians into celebrities.
    First, I think that you missed a couple of posts.

    Second, everyone else might not be taking it a seriously as you seem to believe they are.

  8. #23348
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This Bernie meme idolatry is unsettling. He's been getting this ever since he ran for present in '16 turning him from a politician into a deity. You'd think the left would remember the last time someone did this on the right, we just booted that guy out of the White House. It's wrong to follow in their footsteps of making politicians into celebrities.
    Just because someone has become a meme doesn't mean people are worshipping the source.

    Comical Ali, Mr. Cool Ice, and Overly Attached Girlfriend were all memes too.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  9. #23349
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I can see the need to be careful.

    The only situation I can think of the moment where legislature votes anonymously for intraparty decisions, like votes for new members of leadership.
    So, there is a small precedent.

    Going into anonymous votes can be abused, allowing for votes that are unpopular and bad (pay raises for Congress, limits on journalists, expulsion of a member who criticized her colleagues.)
    Again, I'm only suggesting it for this one, single situation.
    I'd also argue that the current degree of partisan influence is already a form of systemic abuse creating negative results.
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  10. #23350
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This Bernie meme idolatry is unsettling. He's been getting this ever since he ran for present in '16 turning him from a politician into a deity. You'd think the left would remember the last time someone did this on the right, we just booted that guy out of the White House. It's wrong to follow in their footsteps of making politicians into celebrities.
    I didn't like Bernie as a candidate, however now that he isn't one and probably won't be, I find it cute and funny that people are meme-ing him. And, from what I heard, he thinks it's funny too, as well as a great way to promote Vermont knit wear.

    Meme's like this tend to die down in a few days, then everything will be back to normal.

    Oh, and often when someone is meme'd, it's not a good thing. It usually means that they are manking fun of you. However, if you have a sense fo humor, it can be a good, funny thing.
    Last edited by Tami; 01-23-2021 at 06:58 PM.
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  11. #23351
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Trump Pressed Justice Department to Go Directly to Supreme Court to Overturn Election Results

    WASHINGTON—In his last weeks in office, former President Donald Trump considered moving to replace the acting attorney general with another official ready to pursue unsubstantiated claims of election fraud, and he pushed the Justice Department to ask the Supreme Court to invalidate President Biden’s victory, people familiar with the matter said.

    Those efforts failed due to pushback from his own appointees in the Justice Department, who refused to file what they viewed as a legally baseless lawsuit in the Supreme Court. Later, other senior department officials threatened to resign en masse should Mr. Trump fire then-acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, according to several people familiar with the discussions.

    Senior department officials, including Mr. Rosen, former Attorney General William Barr and former acting Solicitor General Jeffrey Wall refused to file the Supreme Court case, concluding that there was no basis to challenge the election outcome and that the federal government had no legal interest in whether Mr. Trump or Mr. Biden won the presidency, some of these people said. White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and his deputy, Patrick Philbin, also opposed Mr. Trump’s idea, which was promoted by his outside attorneys, these people said.

    “He wanted us, the United States, to sue one or more of the states directly in the Supreme Court,” a former administration official said. “The pressure got really intense” after a lawsuit Texas filed in the Supreme Court against four states Mr. Biden won was dismissed on Dec. 11, the official said. An outside lawyer working for Mr. Trump drafted a brief the then-president wanted the Justice Department to file, people familiar with the matter said, but officials refused.
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  12. #23352
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    Trump’s post-presidency plans

    Thread:
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 01-23-2021 at 07:06 PM.
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  13. #23353
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This Bernie meme idolatry is unsettling. He's been getting this ever since he ran for present in '16 turning him from a politician into a deity. You'd think the left would remember the last time someone did this on the right, we just booted that guy out of the White House. It's wrong to follow in their footsteps of making politicians into celebrities.
    Naomi Klein wrote an article about this, albeit she takes it from a pro-Bernie perspective,
    https://theintercept.com/2021/01/21/...nders-mittens/

    The point of the meme is that...people love Bernie. They love the guy genuinely and sincerely.

    He's modified the idea of socialism in America, and modified it singlehandedly,ee from Stalin and Che Guevara to your friendly, kind, not always fashionable professor, corner old guy in the park, your favorite uncle who always has time for you.

    He's pushed the Democrat party to the Left, and also the American public in a large sense. Calling yourself a socialist might not be popular in some parts of America but it's far more popular in the parts of America that it is today, than it used to be.

  14. #23354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    I didn't like Bernie as a candidate, however now that he isn't one and probably won't be, I find it cute and funny that people are meme-ing him. And, from what I heard, he thinks it's funny too, as well as a great way to promote Vermont knit wear.

    Meme's like this tend to die down in a few days, then everything will be back to normal.
    Of course Bernie likes it, that didn't make it good. The problem is that this continues the left's creepy infatuation with him like he's their Daddy Trump. He's not a person to many of them, he's an ideal. AOC gets this, too.

    Oh, and often when someone is meme'd, it's not a good thing. It usually means that they are manking fun of you. However, if you have a sense fo humor, it can be a good, funny thing.
    Not with these sorts of memes. It just exacerbates Bernie's cult of personality with his base rather than letting it die. Despite him losing both times he's still made out to be a deity among certain sections of the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Naomi Klein wrote an article about this, albeit she takes it from a pro-Bernie perspective,
    https://theintercept.com/2021/01/21/...nders-mittens/

    The point of the meme is that...people love Bernie. They love the guy genuinely and sincerely.

    He's modified the idea of socialism in America, and modified it singlehandedly,ee from Stalin and Che Guevara to your friendly, kind, not always fashionable professor, corner old guy in the park, your favorite uncle who always has time for you.

    He's pushed the Democrat party to the Left, and also the American public in a large sense. Calling yourself a socialist might not be popular in some parts of America but it's far more popular in the parts of America that it is today, than it used to be.
    They did that with Trump, as well. Did you think that was something we should emulate in politics? And this isn't a single meme, and the memes aren't without context themselves with Bernie. People being this "attached" to Bernie is dangerous.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 01-23-2021 at 07:14 PM.

  15. #23355
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Short of going to The Hague, it sounds like that was Trump’s end of game Hail Mary play. I’m glad people in the Justice Department basically told him to pound sand.
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