1. #23356
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I get that the points and scope I am framing it, isn't what you intend. I get that. I'm not attacking you at all, or at least that's not my intention. However, I am pointing out that under the present situation, I don't think it's practical, actionable, or desirable. .



    Let's take another example then. During the French Revolution you had the trial to vote on King Louis XVI's guilt in conspiracy, treachery, and instigating a war to overturn the revolution, while also breaking his oath that he had sworn publicly on the constitution of the original constitutional monarchy system.

    That trial had consensus that Louis XVI was absolutely guilty of treason of civil war and breaking the oath, they found documents, letters, and other stuff confirming it. But what nobody was entirely sure of was whether to vote on execution or not, or to vote on immediate execution or execution but with delays. The Jacobin party argued that the King was a danger to the Revolution and someone who has every interest and every desire to stab everyone in the back for his own power.

    During this trial, one member proposed to put the decision to execute the King on popular referendum. This would make the judgment on the King, anonymous, subject to popular will, and be binding, or so they argued. However others shouted this down by arguing that doing so would effectively be passing the buck to the citizens, would essentially foment civil war since depending on the margin, one set of voters would look at their neighbors and see someone who voted to murder a King (in a time when the largely Catholic France bought into Divine Right of Kings and believed that the King was God's representative on earth and so on), and it would essentially mark the people's representatives as a bunch of cowards who didn't have the guts to put their name on a cause, and take the heat on a controversial decision. (There was also the practical issues that a large chunk of the population was illiterate, newspapers were largely available in major cities, the logistics of arranging a referendum on that scale wasn't entirely there in the 1790s).

    [I recommend David P. Jordan's The King's Trial and yes I did do several courses in History in college].

    So again, this anonymous voting thing is just antithetical, and it's not likely to produce the result you want in any case. It could also be the case, that the Republicans who seem to lean to convicting Trump like say Romney or Ben Sasse, under anonymous voting, might vote to acquit. Maybe some red-state dems like Manchin will be tempted too.
    Your example is closer but I think differs enough in certain ways to still miss the mark.
    We're talking about a former President democratically elected to the office, not royalty with generations of hereditary rule.
    No one's suggested a public referendum vote, so there is no buck-passing.
    The argument of creating social unrest is moot. We already have social unrest. If anything it could solve the problem to some extent by guaranteeing Trumps' intelligibility for seeking office in 2024.
    This isn't execution. Executing a King is far and away more impactful to a society than impeaching a President.

    As for your last argument, I doubt we'd see even Manchin vote against impeachment and anonymity would only help a red-state Democrat keep their seat.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  2. #23357
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Where The Food Is.
    Posts
    1,416

    Default

    I love this:

    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

    - Charles Schultz.

  3. #23358
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Your example is closer but I think differs enough in certain ways to still miss the mark.
    True, but my example does point out that one of the fundamental aspects of representative democracy and how it came to fruit when high stakes were at hand.

    Representative Democracy means accountability, transparency, liability and pretty much everyone during the Trial of the King pointed out and agreed, that signing up for this system and this form of government meant you put your name on stuff and took a stand, and then went out to your electorate to explain yourself.

    An issue as serious as the Impeachment Trial of a President who incited a coup d'etat made anonymously would raise the question why is it necessary for Representatives to vote anonymously on this and not other legislation. If voting anonymously makes representatives more courageous, then people might well ask why send representatives to congress to vote on legislate when they can do it themselves. It would mark these representatives as total cowards to vote and not reveal how they voted.

    Executing a King is far and away more impactful to a society than impeaching a President.
    Thor is it though meme.jpg

    The fact is a US President has far more practical power than most Kings in history have ever had. And in the nearly 250 years of American history, no President of the United States has been convicted in an Impeachment Trial, while in those same 250 years you have had quite a few executions, imprisonments, and topplngs of Kings and Emperors in Europe and Asia by comparison. Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of Europe, got captured, imprisoned in his own Island in the middle of nowhere and withered away Al Capone style while W. spends all his time painting crap.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-23-2021 at 07:43 PM.

  4. #23359
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Of course Bernie likes it, that didn't make it good. The problem is that this continues the left's creepy infatuation with him like he's their Daddy Trump. He's not a person to many of them, he's an ideal. AOC gets this, too.
    Obama got it too, as did JFK, as did Lincoln. Adulation of a political figure is common across all parties and all political ideologies, in any spectrum. You're making too much of a big deal.

    Not with these sorts of memes. It just exacerbates Bernie's cult of personality with his base rather than letting it die.
    These memes aren't really from his base. It's from the Internet.

    The meme spread across the internet even to people not in Bernie's base (whatever that means) because people just like Bernie that much. It's a spontaneous direct thing, in no way astroturfed or directed by Sanders either (especially since the meme spread in real time to the coverage of the Inauguration).

    So it's not comparable at all to Trump.

    Despite him losing both times he's still made out to be a deity among certain sections of the left.
    Jeanne d'Arc lost and got burnt in a stake but she became a legitimate Saint and feminist icon, and national treasure of France.

    Defeat or loss doesn't mean a person can't be loved or admired.

  5. #23360
    Incredible Member 4saken1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    814

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Despite him losing both times he's still made out to be a deity among certain sections of the left.
    Except when he endorses the Democratic opponents he loses the nomination to. Then he's a traitor and "Fuck Bernie!" They are a fickle lot.
    Pull List: Ascender,Birthright,Black Hammer,DC Black Label,Critical Role,DCeased,Deadly Class,Goon,Hellboy,Lazarus,Low,Manifest Destiny,Moonshine,Outcast,Redneck,Sex Criminals,Star Wars,Stray Bullets,Usagi Yojimbo,all Valiant.

  6. #23361
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Not with these sorts of memes. It just exacerbates Bernie's cult of personality with his base rather than letting it die. Despite him losing both times he's still made out to be a deity among certain sections of the left.
    I'm not sure that's even all true. I've seen a few people chewing others out on Twitter for using the memes when they're not pure enough. Total "you don't have the right to speak his name" stuff. I expect the meme to die in a few weeks behind toxic gatekeeping.

  7. #23362
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    23,438

    Default

    I suspect that Bernie’s supporters, or, as I call them, “Sandernistas”, don’t have a sense of humor and wouldn’t make fun of their beloved leader. I agree that the shelf life of this particular meme is short lived and will be forgotten by the end of the month, so, get in your laughs while you can!
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  8. #23363
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,018

    Default

    The Arizona G.O.P. Is Sticking With Trumpism, Whether Arizona Republicans Like It or Not

    In 2016, Arizona Republicans controlled both Senate seats and delivered a victory to Donald J. Trump. By 2020, they had lost each of those statewide elections, and Mr. Trump was one of only two Republican presidential candidates to lose the state in more than 50 years.

    The losses are not prompting any sort of soul-searching in the state Republican Party.

    Instead, when the party leadership meets this weekend, the most pressing items on the agenda will be censuring three moderate Republicans who remain widely popular in Arizona. The all-but-certain state party scolding will not have any practical impact, but the symbolism is stark: a slap on the wrist for Cindy McCain, the widow of the Senator John McCain; former Senator Jeff Flake and Gov. Doug Ducey.
    While some Republicans nationwide are beginning to edge away from Trumpism, Arizona is a case of loyalists doubling down, potentially dividing the party in fundamental and irreparable ways. The consequences could be particularly acute in a state that had long been a safe Republican bet, but that has seen a significant political shift in recent years, in large part because of both the increased political participation of young Latinos and the changing views of white suburban women.

    The state party chair, Kelli Ward, who was first elected in 2019, announced that she would run for re-election only after speaking to Mr. Trump, who she said enthusiastically encouraged her. For months, Ms. Ward has sent out fund-raising appeals talking about what she calls the “stolen” election. Arizona’s state legislators have been frequent fixtures at “Stop the Steal” rallies in the state, pushing conspiracy theories and debunked fraud accusations. Two congressmen from the state helped plan the Jan. 6 rally in Washington which drew the mob that later stormed the Capitol. They have also written supportive statements about the rioters.
    The Arizona Republican Party has long engaged with and promoted extremist elements, particularly on immigration, and has an anti-government streak that stretches back to Barry Goldwater, a former senator of the state. Still, some Republicans in Arizona have now begun to sound the alarm, warning that the party is pushing itself into oblivion in a state where independent voters make up nearly a third of the electorate.

    “The angry, spiteful messaging that is coming out of the party right now, it’s not going to win the new west,” said Adam Kwasman, a former state legislator who was once named one of the most conservative lawmakers in the state while in office and who voted for Mr. Trump last year.

    He said his loyalty was to the party more than to the president. “If we want Arizona to not become Colorado, to just hand this state to the Democrats, we have to be laser-focused on working families, and if we don’t do that, we’re doomed,” he said, adding, “We’re in a real disconcerting place.”
    Last edited by Tami; 01-23-2021 at 08:17 PM.
    Original join date: 11/23/2004
    Eclectic Connoisseur of all things written, drawn or imaginatively created.

  9. #23364
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    True, but my example does point out that one of the fundamental aspects of representative democracy and how it came to fruit when high stakes were at hand.

    Representative Democracy means accountability, transparency, liability and pretty much everyone during the Trial of the King pointed out and agreed, that signing up for this system and this form of government meant you put your name on stuff and took a stand, and then went out to your electorate to explain yourself.
    You make some good points about representative democracy but in this particular situation all of those positives could result in a negative outcome. Politicians in that era didn't have to contend with the internet and 24-hour news channels.

    An issue as serious as the Impeachment Trial of a President who incited a coup d'etat made anonymously would raise the question why is it necessary for Representatives to vote anonymously on this and not other legislation.
    The seriousness of the issue is the reason I'm claiming it's necessary.

    If voting anonymously makes representatives more courageous, then people might well ask why send representatives to congress to vote on legislate when they can do it themselves. It would mark these representatives as total cowards to vote and not reveal how they voted.
    Given the level of dysfunction and resulting low opinion of our government, people may just as likely ask the question of what can be done to allow Representatives to affect actual positive change. Clearly, the present situation isn't feasible or we wouldn't be discussing it.

    The fact is a US President has far more practical power than most Kings in history have ever had. And in the nearly 250 years of American history, no President of the United States has been convicted in an Impeachment Trial, while in those same 250 years you have had quite a few executions, imprisonments, and topplngs of Kings and Emperors in Europe and Asia by comparison.
    I get what you're saying but I think regicide is objectively a more serious matter than impeachment.
    The methods and results of each aren't comparable. The level of personal power doesn't factor in there.
    Last edited by ChadH; 01-23-2021 at 08:50 PM.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  10. #23365
    Wanda & Ribrianne~4~Life! CJStriker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    10,840

    Lightbulb

    Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”
    ~~ Brianne De Chateau ~ Episode 102, of Dragon Ball Super!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyHGXMH6HB0
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Come Join and Learn about Wanda Maximoff at: The Scarlet Witch Appreciation Thread!

  11. #23366
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Incertisque loci...incerto tempore
    Posts
    3,025

    Default

    Stories like this give me hope the Republican party will fracture and die a messy death.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  12. #23367
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    4,123

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Obama got it too, as did JFK, as did Lincoln. Adulation of a political figure is common across all parties and all political ideologies, in any spectrum. You're making too much of a big deal.
    There were wrong to do that. Cults of personality aren't something to strive toward. You saw how bad the Bernie supporters got in the primaries with this adulation, people got attacked in real life over this and it went on for years.

    These memes aren't really from his base. It's from the Internet.
    They're a part of his base. It's not like the internet is lacking of people who support him online, in fact they became a big face for his movement whenever he ran for president.

    The meme spread across the internet even to people not in Bernie's base (whatever that means) because people just like Bernie that much. It's a spontaneous direct thing, in no way astroturfed or directed by Sanders either (especially since the meme spread in real time to the coverage of the Inauguration).
    You know want the means, don't be coy. That's part of it, this omits the context for what emery like that represents to his base and we know how and they get when they idolise him. This isn't about astroturfing, that's moving the goal posts - it's about intentions, implications and political fallout. This didn't just start weeks ago. Bernie may not have directed hit but he and his campaign encouraged this amongst his followers.

    So it's not comparable at all to Trump.
    They're doing the exact same thing, this is like whenever someone does a picture of Trump with big muscles. That's a manifestation of how the right see Trump as an idea, something which is very prominent among the left with Bernie. This is about Bernie the idea, not Bernie the man. It's really not a good thing for the left to make Bernie their god king right after Trump did the same thing with his base.

    Jeanne d'Arc lost and got burnt in a stake but she became a legitimate Saint and feminist icon, and national treasure of France.

    Defeat or loss doesn't mean a person can't be loved or admired.
    Now he's being compared to Jeanne d'Arc, proving my point. This isn't about admiring or respecting a politician, but "love" that's creepy infatuation with a political figure. He's a politician, not your cool uncle. There's a spectrum of respect, and the memes are solidifying his hold over his followers like Trump did. Memes aren't harmless.

  13. #23368
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,018

    Default

    Pennsylvania Lawmaker Played Key Role in Trump’s Plot to Oust Acting Attorney General

    WASHINGTON — When Representative Scott Perry joined his colleagues in a monthslong campaign to undermine the results of the presidential election, promoting “Stop the Steal” events and supporting an attempt to overturn millions of legally cast votes, he often took a back seat to higher-profile loyalists in President Donald J. Trump’s orbit.

    But Mr. Perry, an outspoken Pennsylvania Republican, played a significant role in the crisis that played out at the top of the Justice Department this month, when Mr. Trump considered firing the acting attorney general and backed down only after top department officials threatened to resign en masse.

    It was Mr. Perry, a member of the hard-line Freedom Caucus, who first made Mr. Trump aware that a relatively obscure Justice Department official, Jeffrey Clark, the acting chief of the civil division, was sympathetic to Mr. Trump’s view that the election had been stolen, according to former administration officials who spoke with Mr. Clark and Mr. Trump.
    It is unclear when Mr. Perry, who represents the Harrisburg area, met Mr. Clark, a Philadelphia native, or how well they knew each another before the introduction to Mr. Trump. Former Trump administration officials said that it was only in late December that Mr. Clark told Mr. Rosen about the introduction brokered by Mr. Perry, who was among the scores of people feeding Mr. Trump false hope that he had won the election.

    But it is highly unlikely that Mr. Trump would have known Mr. Clark otherwise. Department officials were startled to learn that the president had called Mr. Clark directly on multiple occasions and that the two had met in person without alerting Mr. Rosen, those officials said. Justice Department policy stipulates that the president initially communicates with the attorney general or the deputy attorney general on all matters, and then a lower-level official if authorized.
    Original join date: 11/23/2004
    Eclectic Connoisseur of all things written, drawn or imaginatively created.

  14. #23369
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    20,278

    Default

    If Bernie was as dangerous as the "Bernie..." on this page?

    That would be something.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by numberthirty; 01-23-2021 at 10:16 PM.

  15. #23370
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    On the "legacy" of Trump.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/u...ers-trump.html

    WASHINGTON — As President Donald J. Trump boarded the plane to Florida on Wednesday, he cast his achievements as sweeping, ambitious and, above all, enduring — a few hours before his successor began demolishing that legacy at breakneck speed.

    “We’ve accomplished so much together,” Mr. Trump told a crowd of his supporters, ticking off what he believed to be his top policy successes on immigration, deregulation, veterans affairs and taxes — adding, “We were not a regular administration.”

    The passage of Mr. Trump’s 2017 tax bill and his appointment of three justices to the Supreme Court are clearly his most enduring accomplishments. But many of Mr. Trump’s other signature actions were enacted via executive fiat, making them especially vulnerable to rapid reversal the same way — by an executive order.

    President Biden, a more experienced Washington operator, is not using the process to build his legacy, as Mr. Trump tried to do, but as a means of erasing Mr. Trump’s.

    In his first 48 hours in office, Mr. Biden cranked out about 30 executive orders, of which 14 target a broad range of Trump executive mandates, with the remainder aimed at implementing emergency measures intended to deal with the pandemic and the economic crisis.

    “I don’t think it’s fair to say that most of what Trump did can be undone in an afternoon. It’s going to take at least ten days,” said John D. Podesta, a former adviser to President Barack Obama who lobbied for the targeted use of executive action in Mr. Obama’s second term when congressional Republicans blocked his environmental and immigration proposals.
    Podesta's shade is great. An interesting article on the fact that Mitch McConnell is responsible for the most enduring stuff in Trump's Presidency and that most of the stuff Trump did directly by himself will be undone stat.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •