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  1. #12466
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Here's a good thread debunking the theory that the Michigan terrorists were economically anxious:

    https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/s...78622246719488
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  2. #12467
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    Lindsay Graham is shrill

    and desperate

    possibly has COVID

  3. #12468

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Economics and poverty doesn't cause racism but it is a powerful tool used to either recruit or enhance racism.
    It is one of the only ways to determine racial prejudice in a definite sense. The percentage of the African American population in prison versus the general population is about 2.5 that of the white population. Obviously, more white Americans are killed by police than African Americans, but the percentage of African Americans killed is 2.5 times higher than the general population. However, the disparity between the percentage of African americans under the poverty line compared to whites is also twice that of the general population, and most victims of police violence are low income and poor. Again, even though there are many more white Americans in poverty than any other race or ethnicity, African Americans are twice as likely to be found under the poverty line than whites.

    For decades in the South in the late 1800's and early 20th century, Southern Democrats passed laws designed to eliminate representation and economic opportunities for Southern blacks. At the same time, these mostly rich politicians were very aware that the laws they passed would also disenfranchise and limit the political and economic influence of poor whites. However, they also knew that by using racist ideology, they could persuade the poor and working class white population to support policies that were against their own interests. Ironically, the political philosophy was less racist than the propaganda, if you think about it. From the point of view of the Democrats (or "Dixiecrats" as they've been labeled), their black populations were a credible threat to their political power. Since the Civil War, the Democratic Party - the party of the South - had seen its power decimated in national politics. Blacks back then were universally republican and if they had any power or influence, it would have meant the end of the party's power anywhere. If these politicians had actually believed the propaganda that blacks were lazy, stupid and self-destructive, they would not have been so serious about enforcing and maintaining segregation and racial bias.

    The legacy of these decades remains as well. Today, we see conservative parties using the ideology of free market capitalism to persuade working class and poor voters to support political policies that only benefit those who are already rich and powerful (often the politicians are in this group). Poor people of any race are as likely to face police harassment, long prison sentences, poor legal representation and be the victims of police violence. Poor people of any race will also be the victims of various forms of economic oppression such as a higher percentage of citations for traffic and parking violations, city and municipal fines for property violations and the particularly insidious practice of foreclosure due to tax lien sales (a person can be forced to sell a home they own outright if the taxes suddenly rise on a property targeted for development and they can't pay. Then the city will issue a tax lien that a private party can purchase and legally force the owner to sell their home to reimburse the lien).

    However, these fines, liens and sentences are higher in communities that are primarily made up of minorities compared to mostly white poor communities. The primary material reason for this is the absence of representation of minorities in local politics. Much of this is due to the way parties have stacked the deck in those regions, but also how this history of opposition to minority representation has prevented many people from even seeking to not only enter politics but to participate in politics in any sense. Not only in the sense of voting, either. In Los Angeles, there is a great deal of tension between minorities. For example, in the neighborhoods in and around Koreatown, often most of the residents of the houses and apartments are Latino renters while many of the businesses and most of the property is owned by Korean Americans that live in other parts of the city. The Korean landlords take an active role in the politics of the city and go to city council meetings, have relationships with their representative and have organizations to push their interests in policies. The Latino residents, though they are really the majority in that area, do not take an active role in politics and often end up on the short end when it comes to policy decisions as a result. If you look at the history of California and the American West in general, Latinos faced over a century of oppression with laws designed to limit their political influence and economic opportunities equal to what African Americans faced after the Civil War. Honestly, it only got worse after the Civil War for Mexicans in the West as Easterners started their migration there. Before the War, almost all of the cowboys were Mexican vaqueros and not long after the war, after they had taught their trade to the white (and former slave) immigrants to the West, their work was taken by the new "buckaroos" (this was the way the white settlers pronounced "vaquero.")

    Even if there was no racism in the culture, the disadvantages that resulted from the history of racial inequity would still disproportionately affect minorities. This is what makes educational funding, community organizers, free legal aid and financial advice so important to reversing these effects. There is a great amount of pressure that keeps poor people poor in the United States, and a lot of powerful and wealthy people make their money by exploiting the poor (credit card companies are on the top of the list).

  4. #12469
    Astonishing Member Kusanagi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Here's a good thread debunking the theory that the Michigan terrorists were economically anxious:

    https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/s...78622246719488
    Seriously, especially those with the military cosplay. Do people think all that gear is cheap? Nobody on welfare has the money for the crap these guys wanted to pull.
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  5. #12470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    Seriously, especially those with the military cosplay. Do people think all that gear is cheap? Nobody on welfare has the money for the crap these guys wanted to pull.
    Quoted for truth.
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  6. #12471
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The thing about racism and class is that any time African-Americans made advances they got the boot on the neck. Tulsa pogrom is a good example, where middle-class African-Americans who followed the Jim Crow codes and created wealth in that apartheid condition got air raids directed at their homes and attacked and dispossesed by a white milita across all class lines.

    We also have the case of the Osage people of Oklahoma, a Native American tribe that were extremely wealthy in the early 20th Century and then became subject to ethnic cleansing.

    From a rigid Marxist perspective (and needless to say Marx himself was never this rigid) the middle class and bourgeosie of all groups should ally with one another to oppress the poor of their own communities. In actual practise, race and hierarchy play a big role, and always have.

  7. #12472

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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly this.

    As per the racism, racism in the US has little to do with economics.
    Really, tell that to African Americans whose ancestors were slaves, the whole system of slavery in the South was based on an economic model. Without slavery the confederacy couldn't exist.

    In the early twentieth century, African Americans were virtually barred from being trained skilled workers in the trades, because other white immigrant groups feared facing the economic competition.

    They were hated by the white working class in the North, particularly the Irish because big business would use them as strike breakers, because racist laws helped keep African Americans as cheap labour.

    It's quite simple really, African Americans were sunk to the bottom of the wage scale ladder, so that emerging white immigrant groups wouldn't face economic competition for the limited number of good paying jobs.

    Racism and economics is inexplicitly linked.

  8. #12473
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Really, tell that to African Americans whose ancestors were slaves, the whole system of slavery in the South was based on an economic model. Without slavery the confederacy couldn't exist.

    In the early twentieth century, African Americans were virtually barred from being trained skilled workers in the trades, because other white immigrant groups feared facing the economic competition.

    They were hated by the white working class in the North, particularly the Irish because big business would use them as strike breakers, because racist laws helped keep African Americans as cheap labour.

    It's quite simple really, African Americans were sunk to the bottom of the wage scale ladder, so that emerging white immigrant groups wouldn't face economic competition for the limited number of good paying jobs.

    Racism and economics is inexplicitly linked.
    You know that isn't what he meant. Being poor doesn't make you racist. It doesn't make you more prone to BECOME racist. It doesn't make you more prone to join a militia and try to kidnap a governor. It doesn't make you more explicitly right-wing. Do some additional reading on Right-Wing Authoritarianism. Like such:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503189/
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-10-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  9. #12474
    Astonishing Member Kusanagi's Avatar
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    I think we're starting to drift to issues of class, and issues of racism

    The two have a LOT of crossover but aren't really the same thing.

    Police Brutality as an example has little to do with economic status, it's been going on near continuously for the history of the US boom or bust, and effects African Americans no matter their social standing.

    Times of economic hardship do make it easier for Racists to recruit and radicalize, but they would still exist independent of how the economy is doing.

    In a nutshell I'd say the economy doesn't make a person racist, but it might make a racist person more likely to act on their beliefs.
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  10. #12475
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Really, tell that to African Americans whose ancestors were slaves, the whole system of slavery in the South was based on an economic model. Without slavery the confederacy couldn't exist.

    In the early twentieth century, African Americans were virtually barred from being trained skilled workers in the trades, because other white immigrant groups feared facing the economic competition.

    They were hated by the white working class in the North, particularly the Irish because big business would use them as strike breakers, because racist laws helped keep African Americans as cheap labour.

    It's quite simple really, African Americans were sunk to the bottom of the wage scale ladder, so that emerging white immigrant groups wouldn't face economic competition for the limited number of good paying jobs.

    Racism and economics is inexplicitly linked.
    But according to your previous arguments that militant organizations form because of economic disparity, we'd expect to see Black militias springing up in the poorest communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    I think we're starting to drift to issues of class, and issues of racism

    The two have a LOT of crossover but aren't really the same thing.

    Police Brutality as an example has little to do with economic status, it's been going on near continuously for the history of the US boom or bust, and effects African Americans no matter their social standing.

    Times of economic hardship do make it easier for Racists to recruit and radicalize, but they would still exist independent of how the economy is doing.

    In a nutshell I'd say the economy doesn't make a person racist, but it might make a racist person more likely to act on their beliefs.
    I'd argue that the root cause of racism is Fear.
    Fear of loss of social standing and the perceived power gained from it. Economics can serve as an indicator of loss of power and so does have something to do with the problem but the root of hate is almost always fear and uncertainty of things we don't understand. It's a great motivator and if people are made to beleive their situation is desperate they can be pushed to do things they wouldn't normally ever consider.
    Last edited by ChadH; 10-10-2020 at 08:28 AM.
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  11. #12476

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    You know that isn't what he meant. Being poor doesn't make you racist. It doesn't make you more prone to BECOME racist. It doesn't make you more prone to join a militia and try to kidnap a governor. It doesn't make you more explicitly right-wing. Do some additional reading on Right-Wing Authoritarianism. Like such:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503189/
    That's exactly what he meant, words per verbatim.

    It absolutely has to do with economic stagnation. The far right has always had its insurgence in popularity following steep economic downturns. The great depression of the 1870's was followed by the first wave of right wing populism. The collapse of capitalism in the 1930's led to the rise of fascism throughout Europe, and the great recession gave way to rise in Authoritarian xenophobes throughout the world that crosses racial lines.

    Income equality and economic stability is the lynchpin of a healthy centerist society, you pull the plug on that and as we have seen, both far right and far left fruit loops start popping up everywhere.

  12. #12477
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    My god, I find this "the violent racists are victims, too" theory quite stomach turning.

    Especially considering how little evidence there is for it.

  13. #12478
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    That's exactly what he meant, words per verbatim.
    It's really not, though. He was agreeing with my statement that economic status and racism aren't causative.

    It absolutely has to do with economic stagnation. The far right has always had its insurgence in popularqity following steep economic downturns.
    So did the socialists and communists, but I guess they don't count.

    The great depression of the 1870's was followed by the first wave of right wing populism.
    You're wrong, of course. The first wave of actual far-right of the sort of xenophobia you're talking about was the Know-Nothings, who were a mix of populist anti-slavery, anti-catholic, and anti-immigrant positions, and I'm not even sure that was the 'first', given the different nature of US politics at the time, but the Know-Nothings certainly didn't arrive because of the boom and bust cycle or economic inequality. Social issues can drive right-wing populism just as easily as faux-economic concerns used to mask racism and zero-sum ideology used to protect your in-group.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

    Income quality and economic stability is the lynchpin of a healthy centerist society, you pull the plug on that and as we have seen, both far right and far left fruit loops start popping up everywhere.
    'Healthy centerist society'. Okay.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-10-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  14. #12479
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Number looks good on the surface, but I cannot help but wonder what the fuck is wrong with the remaining 25%:

    75 percent of LGBTQ voters are supporting Joe Biden, poll finds.

    just 17 percent of the registered voters surveyed said they were pulling the lever for President Donald Trump. Six percent said they plan to back another candidate and 3 percent remain undecided.
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  15. #12480
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBullion View Post
    Number looks good on the surface, but I cannot help but wonder what the fuck is wrong with the remaining 25%:

    75 percent of LGBTQ voters are supporting Joe Biden, poll finds.
    Anti-Trans ideologies, for one. TERFs exist, and will gladly make alliances with noxious right-wing conservatism for the sake of owning the transes.

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