All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[The Cool Thatguy]

You should actually read the article you are linking, the study claims that from looking at satellite photos, not even inspecting the sites on the ground, that they found evidence of 15 mosques that had been razed and another 16 damaged, and then extrapolated this sample to conclude that thousands of mosques were being demolished all across Xinjiang. Meanwhile there have been about 25,000 mosques built in Xinjiang since the end of Cultural Revolution, when the government actually did actively promote an anti-religious agenda which they have since entirely reversed course from, which is about 10 times as many as there are in the entire US.

And this is all presupposing that the ultra-conservative Wahabist orthodoxy which most Americans associate with the entirety of the Islamic world does in fact represent native Uyghur culture, which of course isn't really true. Central Asia has always been on the periphery of the Muslim world and Uyghur culture, like many of its neighbors, generally draws more from their pre-Islamic traditions. Just like in Afghanistan, the hardcore fundamentalist ideology is a rather recent import and the fact that the Chinese government is cracking down on this should definitely not be confused with an attempt to eliminate Uyghur culture.

So labor camps are just how they fight terrorism?

Has done, is doing, and will continue doing for the foreseeable future, even if you restrict it to just Muslims, or hell, even specifically to Uyghurs.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...men-guantanamo

See, the difference is that there are mountains of evidence for all of the atrocities the West is committing. When it comes to China, the reporting always picks its wording carefully to insinuate that something horrific is going on, but at best provides circumstantial evidence of a far lesser problem. The reader is then supposed to fill in the blanks by assuming that in the free and open Western nations everything that people could possibly want to know is out there for the public to see, while of course in authoritarian China all of the damning evidence is being covered up and so thus we should freely assume that there's something much worse going on that what we actually know about. It's the same logic that leads people to conclude that China is hiding millions of dead covid patients behind its low official numbers, or that it is goosing its GDP figures to such a degree that the true size of its economy is three or four times smaller. Sure you can believe that if you want, but don't expect anyone who knows better to agree with you.

You seem unable to grasp that two things can be wrong at the same time, and display an amazing amount of faith in a communist, one party regime known for forced abortions and sterilizations

[PwrdOn]

So labor camps are just how they fight terrorism?



You seem unable to grasp that two things can be wrong at the same time, and display an amazing amount of faith in a communist, one party regime known for forced abortions and sterilizations

If it's just a matter of both sides are just as bad, then why are we building nuclear submarines for Australia, a country that is known to have murdered Muslim civilians, including children, essentially for sport as a way of "breaking in" their soldiers, supposedly to protect them from China, who has done no such thing. And honestly, it astonishes me how people bitch and moan about China being overpopulated and using up too many resources on one hand, and then complain about the one child policy on the other. If you care about the well being of Chinese women and children so much, maybe stop threatening to destroy their country.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If it's just a matter of both sides are just as bad, then why are we building nuclear submarines for Australia, a country that is known to have murdered Muslim civilians, including children, essentially for sport as a way of "breaking in" their soldiers, supposedly to protect them from China, who has done no such thing. And honestly, it astonishes me how people bitch and moan about China being overpopulated and using up too many resources on one hand, and then complain about the one child policy on the other. If you care about the well being of Chinese women and children so much, maybe stop threatening to destroy their country.

No one is threatening them, simply forming pre-emptive alliances to make sure the one party, communist regime has someone to counter them.

In addition, there's a difference between rogue soldiers or bad drone strikes, and building entire institutions dedicated to erasing a people's culture and history.

Both are bad.

But one is clearly much worse. And doesn't have the excuse of a fog of war.

[PwrdOn]

No one is threatening them, simply forming pre-emptive alliances to make sure the one party, communist regime has someone to counter them.

In addition, there's a difference between rogue soldiers or bad drone strikes, and building entire institutions dedicated to erasing a people's culture and history.

Both are bad.

But one is clearly much worse. And doesn't have the excuse of a fog of war.

Fog of war and rogue soldiers eh? Don’t even have blind patriotism as an excuse for this one.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Fog of war and rogue soldiers eh? Don’t even have blind patriotism as an excuse for this one.

When it comes to the Oz soldiers, I really have no idea WTF you're alluding to. I've provided articles to back up my position, and you've done none of that. You've just made vague statements about why the evil Assussies shouldn't have subs because of what they did to some muslims that one time, with the thing.

So please, put up or, ya know...

[4saken1]

I’m still waiting to hear what exactly is going on in Xinjiang that I should be so upset about.

I'm sure not much worse than what went on in the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. during WWII, so they're perfectly acceptable. I'm sure reports of banning religious freedoms, forced labor, political indoctrination, systemic rape, torture, forced sterilization, and forced abortions have all been exaggerated.

[PwrdOn]

When it comes to the Oz soldiers, I really have no idea WTF you're alluding to. I've provided articles to back up my position, and you've done none of that. You've just made vague statements about why the evil Assussies shouldn't have subs because of what they did to some muslims that one time, with the thing.

So please, put up or, ya know...

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/25/98954...alian-military

To get the full effect, maybe you can try replacing Australia with China everywhere it appears, so you can get properly outraged instead of preemptively dismissing the incidents as a nothingburger.

[The Cool Thatguy]

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/25/98954...alian-military

To get the full effect, maybe you can try replacing Australia with China everywhere it appears, so you can get properly outraged instead of preemptively dismissing the incidents as a nothingburger.

Why is the murder of 39 people so much worse than turning the entire power of the state against an entire minority group?

What you posted is a war crime, I don't dispute that.

But it doesn't absolve China from their various cultural genocides, which are happening on a far greater scale.

Again, one is terrible. But the other is worse.

[babyblob]

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/25/98954...alian-military

To get the full effect, maybe you can try replacing Australia with China everywhere it appears, so you can get properly outraged instead of preemptively dismissing the incidents as a nothingburger.

This is tragic. And those who committed these murders need to be held responsible. But why should this prevent Australia from entering in a deal to buy subs from France or the USA? And the sale of those Subs to one country would only be a threat to China if China makes moves against them. If they Dont go after Australia I am sure they wont have to worry about an Aussie sub floating down the Yangtze blowing up cities.

[PwrdOn]

Why is the murder of 39 people so much worse than turning the entire power of the state against an entire minority group?

What you posted is a war crime, I don't dispute that.

But it doesn't absolve China from their various cultural genocides, which are happening on a far greater scale.

Again, one is terrible. But the other is worse.

This is well documented and nobody involved really disputes the details. What you are alleging about Xinjiang is absolutely not documented at all and is mostly just projection on your part.

This is tragic. And those who committed these murders need to be held responsible. But why should this prevent Australia from entering in a deal to buy subs from France or the USA? And the sale of those Subs to one country would only be a threat to China if China makes moves against them. If they Dont go after Australia I am sure they wont have to worry about an Aussie sub floating down the Yangtze blowing up cities.

Why would you be sure about that? Australia has tagged along in pretty much all of America’s wars and foreign warships sailing down the Yangtze was a frequent occurrence before the communists took power.

[The Cool Thatguy]

This is well documented and nobody involved really disputes the details. What you are alleging about Xinjiang is absolutely not documented at all and is mostly just projection on your part..

It's pretty well documented by dozens of human rights groups, actually. You act like it's easy to get solid proof from a country that's a complete dictatorship that loves censorship.

Next, you'll no doubt ask if I've seen it with my own eyes

[PwrdOn]

It's pretty well documented by dozens of human rights groups, actually. You act like it's easy to get solid proof from a country that's a complete dictatorship that loves censorship.

Next, you'll no doubt ask if I've seen it with my own eyes

If someone were to show me some grainy satellite images of some purported mosque demolitions, I wouldn’t immediately jump to the conclusion that it was evidence of some massive state sponsored operation to wipe an entire culture from the face of the earth. And if someone were to show me evidence of Uyghurs being very much alive and practicing their traditional culture, I probably would not immediately assume they were all just paid propagandists or whatever. And I mean, Xinjiang is not closed off, you very much can go visit and see for yourself and, presumably being a white American, will be treated quite well by everyone while you’re there.

I do not doubt that Uyghurs do suffer from a degree of discrimination and marginalization, and that the policies the Chinese government has implemented in Xinjiang are likely creating more problems than they fix. What I doubt is YOUR intentions and YOUR concern for a group of people you likely never heard of and knew nothing about until this recent propaganda war between the US and China heated up.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If someone were to show me some grainy satellite images of some purported mosque demolitions, I wouldn’t immediately jump to the conclusion that it was evidence of some massive state sponsored operation to wipe an entire culture from the face of the earth. And if someone were to show me evidence of Uyghurs being very much alive and practicing their traditional culture, I probably would not immediately assume they were all just paid propagandists or whatever. And I mean, Xinjiang is not closed off, you very much can go visit and see for yourself and, presumably being a white American, will be treated quite well by everyone while you’re there.

It's not just grainy videos, thanks.

It's the videos, it's the demolished graveyard with a park placed over it, it's state surveillance, mass deportations and hundreds of interviews with people who've been in the camps.

You're using one part of evidence to dismiss all of it, and the work of aid agencies who've put themselves at risk to get the information out.

[PwrdOn]

It's not just grainy videos, thanks.

It's the videos, it's the demolished graveyard with a park placed over it, it's state surveillance, mass deportations and hundreds of interviews with people who've been in the camps.

You're using one part of evidence to dismiss all of it, and the work of aid agencies who've put themselves at risk to get the information out.

And for all of the atrocities committed by Australia, the US, and other "democratic" nations we have dead bodies, lots and lots of them. If you want to say that both are just as bad, then you need to apply the same standard of evidence on both sides. If you're going to assert that one side is worse despite the fact that far LESS evidence exists for its misdeeds than for the other, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Just be honest with me here, before this current spat with China started circa 2017 or so, did you even know that there was a Muslim ethnic group living in the northwest of the country with a distinct culture? It's okay if you didn't, I had no idea who the Rohingya were before they started showing up in the news either.

[Totoro Man]

well, at least PwrdOn didn't deny that China invaded Vietnam. so, that's encouraging!

so, is the idea that they sent over 200,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks into Vietnamese territory for something other than territorial gain? what could that motive be?
why would they do this? why would they keep fighting for nearly a month? why would China launch a three pronged massive invasion, fight for nearly a month, withdraw, and then claim that they "won"?

just because they failed and backed out doesn't mean that China wasn't expecting an easy victory against an adversary (and former ally) that they looked down on. it also doesn't negate the possibility that China fully intended on KEEPING the territory they expected to easily conquer. you deny that China had territorial ambitions... and yet, you never bothered to provide an alternative motive!

so, it's good that China backed out. maybe they didn't want to emulate the Soviet or US occupation scenarios of Afghanistan. that's pretty sensible.

but saying that the borders didn't change shouldn't let them off the hook for trying!

that's like saying that if somebody attempts to rape another person, but fails to do so, that we should let them off the hook! after all, it wasn't actual rape... it was just an attempt!