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  1. #1786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Every death is a tragedy, but it doesn't stand to reason that more police officers are murdered on the line of duty than kill someone unnecessarily.
    Yeah this isn't really about who does what more often, is it

  2. #1787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    Trickle-down economics doesn't really exist as an economic policy. It's more of a caricature.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ie_121142.html

    If it's a term for different ideas, doesn't that suggest it's a meaningless buzzword?
    No. It's a description for a set of values and ideas that underpin an economic system. It's widely used, discussed and debate in my country, so there may be something lost in translation here.

    And trickle-down economics most definitely exists as an economic policy. Perhaps it's just not spoken about so obviously anymore. When conservative governments cut taxes for high-income earners and big businesses and say the profits will flow downwards, that's trickle down.

    Although you can clearly see why some would label it voodoo, because of the massive redistribution of wealth towards the already wealthy continues. Wall Street 2008/9 anyone?

    That article was just bizarre. We're not talking about tax rates above 50% from more than a century ago.
    Last edited by sammy_hansen; 05-28-2020 at 06:31 PM.

  3. #1788
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonAnders View Post
    Yeah this isn't really about who does what more often, is it
    I looked up some statistics, and looking at police deaths on duty the biggest category seems to be suicide. Then being shot by someone else or killed in an auto wreck when they weren't wearing a seatbelt - those two varied enough in the two years of data I saw that I can't say which one is greater long term.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

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    Also, worth pointing out for the unconvinced, look at the police responses to HEAVILY-ARMED WHITE PEOPLE storming the legislative building to demand the right to get a haircut and the response to black people protesting against innocent people being murdered in the street.

  5. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Looking at the statistics, 48 cops were shot to death last year. Three died from assault. Seven died from vehicular assault.

    https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2019

    Every death is a tragedy, but it doesn't stand to reason that more police officers are murdered on the line of duty than kill someone unnecessarily.
    1) It's not a competition

    2) We don't actually know that, as police shootings are not federally reported

    3) If we want to make it a competition, who wants to bet that the cops are the ones more likely to walk away unpunished?

  6. #1791
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    They shouldn’t be rioting. Protests shouldn’t be violent. I’m disgusted by this.

    They should peacefully protest. Like Martin Luther King and Colin Kaepernick.

    I mean sure one got shot and the other lost his job because they couldn’t stand kneeling at a football game, but that was the right way to protest.

  7. #1792
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    They shouldn’t be rioting. Protests shouldn’t be violent. I’m disgusted by this.

    They should peacefully protest. Like Martin Luther King and Colin Kaepernick.

    I mean sure one got shot and the other lost his job because they couldn’t stand kneeling at a football game, but that was the right way to protest.
    "The riot is the voice of the unheard" Martin Luther King Jr

    Although in this case I think they are being heard. The officers involved haven't been charged, but as has been noted in this thread, the bar for prosecuting police officers is incredibly high, even with evidence that would make a case a slam dunk for anyone else. The South Carolina cop who was caught on camera shooting someone, THEN dropping his taser next to the corpse required a second trial to get a conviction.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 05-28-2020 at 07:08 PM.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  8. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    "The riot is the voice of the unheard" Martin Luther King Jr
    The USA was born of a riot, (and violence and killing) but that was white people so it’s not a bad thing.


    White people that didn’t like taxation. Black people that don’t wanna die. Where’s the pro-life party now?

  9. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    "The riot is the voice of the unheard" Martin Luther King Jr
    On the one hand? Sure.

    On the other hand? How much has rioting changed the actual picture? Never mind looting or torching drug stores or auto parts stores.

  10. #1795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There is no obligation to respond to any point in a public forum.
    You selectively responded to my post -- while simultaneously disregarding the issue I raised regarding Republican cuts to education.

    Which you are still selectively disregarding in an effort to try to harp on semantics rather than your party's "personal" attacks on my civil rights.

    Just as you did the issue of voter suppression and related "distasteful" choices.

    And the issue of immigration and "open borders".

    And the issue of police brutality and "personal anecdotes".

    Don't get mad just because I call you out for your deflection, nor when I point out that I have no interest in playing games of rhetoric.

    That said, feel free to get back to the topic and address the primary issue of Republican cuts to education brought up in the videos.

    Or don't and simply acknowledge that is why I feel it's useless to discuss these issues with you, while others may not.

    Well one of the reasons -- the primary one being that the Republican party never lives up to your rhetoric regarding either policy or integrity.

    More importantly, it's not about my response on these forums, which is virtually irrelevant in the scheme of things.

    It's really about how the world is responding to Republican "leadership" and I'm just one of the many speaking the truth.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-28-2020 at 07:32 PM.

  11. #1796
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    Also, worth pointing out for the unconvinced, look at the police responses to HEAVILY-ARMED WHITE PEOPLE storming the legislative building to demand the right to get a haircut and the response to black people protesting against innocent people being murdered in the street.
    Just the photo of the Saturday morning cereal bowl Viking guy yelling in the face of stoic, face masked law enforcers, during a global pandemic no less, looks worth a nightstick to the jaw, a taser to the balls, and a few random gunshots to whoever at the wide area, just to be safe.

    If he wasn't white you know.

  12. #1797
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    "The riot is the voice of the unheard" Martin Luther King Jr

    Although in this case I think they are being heard. The officers involved haven't been charged, but as has been noted in this thread, the bar for prosecuting police officers is incredibly high, even with evidence that would make a case a slam dunk for anyone else. The South Carolina cop who was caught on camera shooting someone, THEN dropping his taser next to the corpse required a second trial to get a conviction.
    Here's an excellent article on qualified immunity and how it makes it so hard to hold cops like this one accountable *before* it reaches this point.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...munity-scotus/

    It's a very long read but an important one.

    And I just want to point out for those 'upset' about the riots and talking about MLK: without the spectre of civil unrest, riots, and black nationalism, the white power structure would never have turned to MLK.

    Edit: due to an abusive PM I just received, I'll add: this is not an endorsement of 'senseless violence'. Just pointing out that MLK's movement also relied on the threat of black nationalism and black civil unrest and riots to present itself as a moderate alternative. As we've seen with Kaepernick, peaceful protest is also frequently peacefully ignored.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 05-28-2020 at 08:17 PM.

  13. #1798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Here's the Wikipedia definition of neoliberalism.



    That lines up fairly closely to with what 'free market conservatives' claim to want - although I think that what we have now is really just people laying claim to that title, but want the government to provide a guaranteed income and freedom from any level of oversight (while simultaneously putting up expensive regulatory roadblocks to any potential new competition)
    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Even though we usually talk about liberalism and conservatism as diametric opposites, strictly speaking they don't have to be. Liberalism is basically in favor of free markets, free trade, free everything, whereas conservatism is in favor of traditional values and social hierarchies, but in the world of the 1980s, those at the top of the socioeconomic ladder also just so happened to be the ones that would benefit from free trade policies. Historically, liberalism fell out of favor in the early 20th century since both socialism on the left and fascism on the right favored greater government control of economic activity, and so neoliberalism sort of represented a revival of the free market policies of the 18th and 19th centuries.
    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    “Neoliberalism is a term for different social and economic ideas. Neoliberalism is characterized by free market trade, deregulation of financial markets, individualisation, and the shift away from state welfare provision.”

    So basically the opposite of social democracy.
    Thank you all for the education!

    Apparently, right on the heels of George Floyd we've just had another incident, this time brought to you by the LAPD. I can't link the video directly, but you can see it in the latest post on Seph Lawless's Instagram

    Granted, we don't see how it all started, but the cop just straight opens the door, practically climbs half way in, then starts beating the driver while the driver's friend films. I mean, JESUS....

  14. #1799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Here's an excellent article on qualified immunity and how it makes it so hard to hold cops like this one accountable *before* it reaches this point.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...munity-scotus/

    It's a very long read but an important one.

    And I just want to point out for those 'upset' about the riots and talking about MLK: without the spectre of civil unrest, riots, and black nationalism, the white power structure would never have turned to MLK.

    Edit: due to an abusive PM I just received, I'll add: this is not an endorsement of 'senseless violence'. Just pointing out that MLK's movement also relied on the threat of black nationalism and black civil unrest and riots to present itself as a moderate alternative. As we've seen with Kaepernick, peaceful protest is also frequently peacefully ignored.
    MLK was shot and killed advocating for peaceful non-violent change.

    Then people rioted worse.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots

    Then change was legislated.

    That's not an advocation of violence.

    That's an advisement to listen to the oppressed before they turn to violence.

    -----
    "On April 5, at 11:00 AM, Johnson met with an array of leaders in the Cabinet Room. These included Vice President Hubert Humphrey, U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, and federal judge Leon Higginbotham; government officials such as secretary Robert Weaver and D.C. Mayor Walter Washington; legislators Mike Mansfield, Everett Dirksen, William McCulloch; and civil rights leaders Whitney Young, Roy Wilkins, Clarence Mitchell, Dorothy Height, and Walter Fauntroy.

    Notably absent were representatives of more radical groups such as SNCC and CORE. At the meeting, Mayor Washington asked President Johnson to deploy troops to the District of Columbia. Richard Hatcher, the newly elected black mayor of Gary, Indiana, spoke to the group about white racism and his fears of racially motivated violence in the future. Many of these leaders told Johnson that socially progressive legislation would be the best response to the crisis.[21] The meeting concluded with prayers at the Washington National Cathedral.[22]

    Some responded to the riots with suggestions for improving the conditions that engendered them. Many White House aides took the opportunity to push their preferred programs for urban improvement. At the same time, some members of Congress criticized Johnson. Senator Richard Russell felt Johnson was not going far enough to suppress the violence. Senator Robert Byrd suggested that Washington, D.C. ought to be occupied indefinitely by the army.

    Johnson chose to focus his political capital on a fair housing bill proposed by Senator Sam Ervin. He urged Congress to pass the bill, starting with an April 5 letter addressed to the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, John William McCormack.[22][25][26]

    These events led to the rapid passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, Title VIII of which is known as the "Fair Housing Act"."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots


    -----
    "Another impetus for the law's passage came from the 1966 Chicago Open Housing Movement. Also influential was the 1963 Rumford Fair Housing Act in California, which had been backed by the NAACP and CORE.[8][9] and the 1967 Milwaukee fair housing campaigns led by James Groppi and the NAACP Youth Council.[10] Senator Walter Mondale advocated for the bill in Congress, but noted that over successive years, a federal fair housing bill was the most filibustered legislation in US history.[11] It was opposed by most Northern and Southern senators, as well as the National Association of Real Estate Boards.[8] A proposed "Civil Rights Act of 1966" collapsed completely because of its fair housing provision. Mondale commented:

    A lot of [previous] civil rights [legislation] was about making the South behave and taking the teeth from George Wallace…. This came right to the neighborhoods across the country. This was civil rights getting personal.:[11]

    Two developments revived the bill.[11] The Kerner Commission report on the 1967 ghetto riots strongly recommended "a comprehensive and enforceable federal open housing law,"[12][13] and was cited regularly by Congress members arguing for the legislation.[14] The final breakthrough came with the April 4, 1968 assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., and the civil unrest across the country following King's death.[15][16] On April 5, Johnson wrote a letter to the United States House of Representatives urging passage of the Fair Housing Act.[17]

    The Rules Committee, "jolted by the repeated civil disturbances virtually outside its door," finally ended its hearings on April 8.[18] With newly urgent attention from legislative director Joseph Califano and Democratic Speaker of the House John McCormack, the bill (which was previously stalled) passed the House by a wide margin on April 10.[15][19]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_...f_1968#History
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-28-2020 at 08:37 PM.

  15. #1800
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    MLK was shot and killed advocating for peaceful non-violent change.

    Then people rioted worse.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots

    Then change was legislated.

    That's not an advocation of violence.

    That's an advisement to listen to the oppressed before they turn to violence.

    -----
    "On April 5, at 11:00 AM, Johnson met with an array of leaders in the Cabinet Room. These included Vice President Hubert Humphrey, U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, and federal judge Leon Higginbotham; government officials such as secretary Robert Weaver and D.C. Mayor Walter Washington; legislators Mike Mansfield, Everett Dirksen, William McCulloch; and civil rights leaders Whitney Young, Roy Wilkins, Clarence Mitchell, Dorothy Height, and Walter Fauntroy.

    Notably absent were representatives of more radical groups such as SNCC and CORE. At the meeting, Mayor Washington asked President Johnson to deploy troops to the District of Columbia. Richard Hatcher, the newly elected black mayor of Gary, Indiana, spoke to the group about white racism and his fears of racially motivated violence in the future. Many of these leaders told Johnson that socially progressive legislation would be the best response to the crisis.[21] The meeting concluded with prayers at the Washington National Cathedral.[22]

    Some responded to the riots with suggestions for improving the conditions that engendered them. Many White House aides took the opportunity to push their preferred programs for urban improvement. At the same time, some members of Congress criticized Johnson. Senator Richard Russell felt Johnson was not going far enough to suppress the violence. Senator Robert Byrd suggested that Washington, D.C. ought to be occupied indefinitely by the army.

    Johnson chose to focus his political capital on a fair housing bill proposed by Senator Sam Ervin. He urged Congress to pass the bill, starting with an April 5 letter addressed to the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, John William McCormack.[22][25][26]

    These events led to the rapid passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, Title VIII of which is known as the "Fair Housing Act"."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots
    This is also 100% correct, as you so frequently are, Aja.

    I just think it's important to note that peaceful change is rarely ever achieved without the power structure having an alternative they're concerned about, and people frequently defang King and forget about the role militancy and social unrest played in achieving civil rights for black Americans.

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