1. #18211
    Mighty Member 4saken1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    My argument was that Democrats step down until there's a political cost for their party.

    I'm not sure this counts, given that Hill put them in a situation where there were going to be political costs no matter what.

    A special election isn't quite the equivalent of a situation where the other party is guaranteed to take over, but it is a possibility. Granted, the other party is more likely to win, when a special election occurs due to some kind of scandal.

    There are political calculations that would affect the decisions. Democrats could figure that 1 of 435 congressional seats isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, and they thought 2020 would be an even better election than 2018, so that it would be better for the prospects of holding the seat if Katie Hill were not the incumbent.

    The Republican won the special election, and assumed office in May, so the party lost a seat for eight months.

    He's leading by about 400 votes from the latest election, which does suggest Democrats came really close to taking back the seat. I'm not sure it would have been better for them if a congressperson who had an affair with a younger subordinate were the incumbent, even if she wouldn't run for a second term.
    Seems like a pretty narrow set of criteria that you set in order for a Democratic resignation to actually be any indication of there being an alternate set of standards for the two Parties. IF they don't have a significant lead over Republicans in the number of seats they hold in their Congressional chamber, IF their length of time left in office is long enough, IF their seat either isn't a 'safe' one or alternately one that isn't guaranteed to go back to Republicans. Any other criteria you'd like to add before a Democratic resignation can mean anything with regards to this debate, or would you rather just wait and see if there are any other noteworthy cases so you can make up whatever bullshit standards that it doesn't meet for you on the spot?
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  2. #18212
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    Meanwhile

    Trump’s bid to exclude undocumented immigrants from reapportionment arrives at Supreme Court

    President Trump will swing for the fences in his last immigration legal battle at the Supreme Court, where he claims authority for the first time in the nation’s history to exclude undocumented residents when deciding the size of each state’s congressional delegation.

    Opponents of his plan say it is foreclosed by more than 200 years of practice, the text of the Constitution and the authority granted the president by Congress. Three lower courts have ruled against Trump, and a fourth said the time was not ripe for a decision on the question’s merits.

    But the president’s lawyers will tell the Supreme Court on Monday that it is up to the president to decide whether undocumented immigrants should be counted, a decision that could have far-reaching implications for a state’s representation in Congress and power in the electoral college, and for billions of dollars in federal funds.
    “The president need not treat all illegal aliens as ‘inhabitants’ of the states and thereby allow their defiance of federal law to distort the allocation of the people’s representatives,” acting solicitor general Jeffrey B. Wall wrote in the government’s brief to the court.

    “To the contrary, that an alien lacks permission to be in this country, and may be subject to removal, is relevant to whether he has sufficient ties to a state to rank among its ‘inhabitants.’ ”
    Trump’s opponents say his reapportionment intentions, announced in a July memorandum, are an extension of that. Legally, they say, his plan is directly contradicted by the Constitution’s requirement to base apportionment of the House of Representatives on “the whole number of persons in each state” as determined by the once-a-decade census.

    The constitutional mandates mean undocumented immigrants are included in that “whole number,” argues New York, one of the states challenging Trump’s intentions.
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  3. #18213
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    And now he has the votes on the Court to do it. I predict we see a 5-4 vote to screw the areas with large immigrant populations.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #18214
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4saken1 View Post
    Seems like a pretty narrow set of criteria that you set in order for a Democratic resignation to actually be any indication of there being an alternate set of standards for the two Parties. IF they don't have a significant lead over Republicans in the number of seats they hold in their Congressional chamber, IF their length of time left in office is long enough, IF their seat either isn't a 'safe' one or alternately one that isn't guaranteed to go back to Republicans. Any other criteria you'd like to add before a Democratic resignation can mean anything with regards to this debate, or would you rather just wait and see if there are any other noteworthy cases so you can make up whatever bullshit standards that it doesn't meet for you on the spot?
    The question is whether it's a principle or whether it's posturing.

    The standard is pretty simple. The way to determine that is to see how Democrats react in situations in which it doesn't cost the party (Calls for a Democratic Governor to resign when a rising star is the Lieutenant Governor), and how they react in situations in which it does (calls for a Democratic Governor to resign when the next people in line are tainted, and fourth in line is a Republican).

    With Katie Hill, it wasn't clear that pushing her out cost the party more than keeping her in.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #18215
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    And now he has the votes on the Court to do it. I predict we see a 5-4 vote to screw the areas with large immigrant populations.
    Don't forget Mitch McConnell was the architect of changing the Supreme Court long before Trump jumped into politics. I have no doubt that Yertle the Turtle and his staff provided the list of nominees too. Trump isn't capable of doing the analysis

  6. #18216
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Don't forget Mitch McConnell was the architect of changing the Supreme Court long before Trump jumped into politics. I have no doubt that Yertle the Turtle and his staff provided the list of nominees too. Trump isn't capable of doing the analysis
    The night Ginsberg died, McConnell called Trump to tell him to nominate Barret.

    McConnell pushed Trump to nominate Barrett on the night of Ginsburg's death: report
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #18217
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    The night Ginsberg died, McConnell called Trump to tell him to nominate Barret.

    McConnell pushed Trump to nominate Barrett on the night of Ginsburg's death: report
    More evidence of what a fucking ghoul Kentucky Fried Turtle is. A more loathsome human being you’ll never find in this country.
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  8. #18218
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    More evidence of what a fucking ghoul Kentucky Fried Turtle is. A more loathsome human being you’ll never find in this country.
    And if democrats don't take the senate back he'll be a tick on the ass of the Biden administration.

  9. #18219
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    More evidence of what a fucking ghoul Kentucky Fried Turtle is. A more loathsome human being you’ll never find in this country.
    I know it's petty, but I sincerely hope that, as soon as they can, Biden and the Democrats find a way to pull as much federal money out of Kentucky as they possibly can. Every last cent if they can. And do it to South Carolina as well. Because if the only reason these assholes keep getting reelected is because they bring home the bacon, then I want those enablers to starve. Metaphorically speaking.

  10. #18220
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    I know it's petty, but I sincerely hope that, as soon as they can, Biden and the Democrats find a way to pull as much federal money out of Kentucky as they possibly can. Every last cent if they can. And do it to South Carolina as well. Because if the only reason these assholes keep getting reelected is because they bring home the bacon, then I want those enablers to starve. Metaphorically speao king.
    That kind of d--k move might be satisfying in the abstract but would not work out well. There are significant pockets of blue voters and African-American populations in both states who would be the main people who pay the price for these shenanigans.

    It's also immoral and contrary to the principle of the government, and not very different from Trump politicizing PPE supplies to punish blue states during the Pandemic. Remember McConnell isn't the people of Kentucky (which currently has a Democrat governor), nor is Lindsay Graham the people of South Carolina (Important Dems like Rep. Clyburn come from South Carolina, and Jaime Harrison who ran close to Lindsay Graham and got a big margin is also a Dem).

    And who's to say that someday these states can't be blue states...Arizona and Georgia weren't abandoned and left to suffer at the red states' hands. The GOP's actions in California in the '90s and Trump's presidency in the last four years and his handling of the pandemic will have kept them away from CA and NYS for the forseeable future. Hyperpartisanship is a loser's game, whereas the Dems have to be open armed and keep a seat free at the table by comparison.

  11. #18221
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    I know it's petty, but I sincerely hope that, as soon as they can, Biden and the Democrats find a way to pull as much federal money out of Kentucky as they possibly can. Every last cent if they can. And do it to South Carolina as well. Because if the only reason these assholes keep getting reelected is because they bring home the bacon, then I want those enablers to starve. Metaphorically speaking.
    The only way to deal with McConnell is to pack the Senate with Democrats. The only chance of that happening begins with winning the Georgia runoff. Then the Dems have to win big in 2022, somehow. Odds are not good, but then again, who knows.

    If the Dems get the majority by 2022, Mitch will be back to hiding in his shell.
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  12. #18222
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    And if democrats don't take the senate back he'll be a tick on the ass of the Biden administration.
    Just going to take a moment to point something out here...

    While Democrats were counting their chickens and potentially hanging Working Class Joe/Jane out to dry by not taking a deal before the election?

    Turns out that Sanders had been right the entire time when he pointed out that you might need a movement outside of politics to deal with the Senate. Pointing out that to have a realistic chance at anything like actual leverage, you were going to need a movement and not just an election.

  13. #18223
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Just going to take a moment to point something out here...

    While Democrats were counting their chickens and potentially hanging Working Class Joe/Jane out to dry by not taking a deal before the election?

    Turns out that Sanders had been right the entire time when he pointed out that you might need a movement outside of politics to deal with the Senate. Pointing out that to have a realistic chance at anything like actual leverage, you were going to need a movement and not just an election.
    "Sanders was right" has no real meaning at this point. What does is solutions, not finger pointing or gloating.

  14. #18224
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Thanks you Tami. There is still some worrying stuff in there but I am trying to be optimistic.
    The PA Supreme Court overturned that lower court judge's ruling, opening the way for PA to finish the election certification process.
    Last edited by Tami; 11-28-2020 at 05:42 PM.
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  15. #18225
    Ultimate Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    This is nothing new, nor is it unique to Trump. Republicans have spent the last forty years telling us that government can do nothing right and then getting into government to make sure it gets nothing right.
    Watching television is not an activity.

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