All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Tami]

I'm glad my sharing of news and other information is useful. I'm often not sure if it is, but mostly I post because I find something in the articles or other sources that I've learned from myself. In one way or another.

For example, Trump is having a press conference right now that is being real-time fact checked by several sources. This quote/paraphrase I found to be interesting as another example if how desperate Trump is.

Trump falsely says he has "easily" won, "if you count the legal votes." MSNBC cut away immediately because he was lying.

Another take on it: Trump is trying to falsely claim victory again, saying when “legal votes” are counted, he “wins easily,” even in the face of “unprecedented interference from big media and big tech."

I'm not watching it myself, though I maybe i should.

Still, I am wondering just how far down the rabbit hole has Trump gone? How crazy can this get?

[Mister Mets]

By who? This continues to suggest Trump was a weak candidate when there is no evidence in this post showing why that is, we're supposed to take it as fact without evidence. Trump is a majorly worrying candidate, but it's not like monsters aren't popular with countries. Bolsonaro and Duterte won elections in Brazil and the Phillipines. George W Bush was a monster, do you think he was a weak candidate?



This is incredibly vague, who are you suggesting would have been a stronger candidate? And what you basing this off? Anyone can question things, but that's not proof Biden is weak. An expectation that has been shown to proven false.




With Kamala being groomed as Biden's successor.



Probably many, and many independents who would have hated anyone who wasn't Bernie who won the nomination. They'll get another shot in the future.



Dems are head to head with the GOP in the senate, so he must have strong coat tails since th senate is more conservative by design. And he's doing well in states like Arizona. If he was a weak candidate this wouldn't be occurring.

I do think George W Bush was a weaker candidate than McCain would have been.

I don't know enough about the politics of other countries to identify whether the strong men win perform better in general elections.

With Trump, we can compare his record in 2020 to other candidates and it seems he was outperformed by candidates for the US House, as well as various statewide races. So that would suggest generic Republican outperformed him.

To be clear, I think Biden was a strong candidate. I was responding to those who think he was weak.

I'm absolutely sure Kamala is groomed as Biden's successor.

I think it’s a terrible idea to be honest.

1. Coronation candidates typically leave a bad taste in people’s mouth. People don’t like feeling like something is inevitable for years. It takes away the illusion of choice. It hurt Hillary badly.

2. As of late, people associated with the current administration haven’t been doing too well. Gore lost after being Clinton’s VP. Clinton lost after being Obama’s Secretary of State. There’s a reason we haven’t had consecutive Party Presidents since Reagan/Bush. America is always looking for a new thing.

3. Harris as of yet has not shown any coalition building ability. The ticket she was on just lost more POC’s than the prior and she unceremoniously was the first major exit in the primary. There needs to be some evidence that she can improve.

4. This is really the big one. We don’t know what the dynamic is in 4 years. Biden is going to walk in dealing with a healthcare crisis, an economic crisis, a conservative court, undoing policy Trump put in place, and is going be fighting a Senate who wants to gut his Presidency, and quite frankly progressives have already made it pretty clear that they are only tolerating him to get rid of Trump and that ends the minute he takes the oath. Harris will be the person next to him through that. If he’s not effective and people are unhappy, she’s going to be saddled with that and would be stupid to run her. She’d be the vulnerable candidate in American history. Likewise if Biden does an amazing job navigating through that and he’s strong and popular coming into 2024.... the Democratic Party is going to have a senior discussion about if it’s a smart idea to move on from a popular incumbent President who likely would win to get a the VP in there for optic reasons (she’s younger and represents the new face of the party). It would be considered one of the biggest political blunders if a popular Biden stepped down for his VP and then they lost.

It's not clear whether coronation candidates lose because they're coronation candidates, or whether they lose because they run in weaker cycles (when their party has held the White House for two earlier terms.)

With Harris, it will be tough to run in a Democratic primary against a Vice President with media support who will be the first woman elected to national office and the first woman of color on a major-party ticket. Personally, I think it shouldn't matter, but my sense is that it will for progressives. Granted, Vice Presidents have a really good track record of winning Democratic presidential primaries, as evident by Joe Biden winning the nomination at 77.

Looking at the election map and I think an argument can be made to Southern States that the Electoral College isn't doing them any favors, not any more.

I am beginning to think that, in time, most states would support getting rid of the EC or minimizing it's role in some way.

Conservative states aren't going to get rid of the electoral college while there is the perception is that it helps Republicans.

Swing states also have less incentive to get rid of it. First, it's unlikely for Democrats to have control of enough of the state legislatures in states that are competitive. But it also brings attention and material benefits to a state if it's considered in play in the general election.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Ok I can't bear to watch much of this Trump speech but how the actual F*** did almost 70 million people think yep 4 more years of this clown?

I don't know, how did similar number of people believe crap on Facebook, Twitter, decided to defy mask orders and so on and so forth?

The same irrationality we saw this year correlates with Trump's turnout. The GOP governors in various places backed Trump on that and I think they saw the impact of Trump's following in people defying COVID and so on, and thought "If we get them to think it's acceptable to do that, enough of them might vote Trump and so us, downballot". Some of them died in the process but as Movie!Magneto says, "In chess, the pawns go first".

That's one way the Pandemic actually helped Trump's turnout.

What helped the GOP do well downballot is Ginsburg's death, the SCOTUS nomination and the refusal to pass the Stimulus Bill. The SCOTUS fired up the moderate Republican base as well as Trump, the Stimulus Bill failure helped them win back some of the House seats they lost in 2018 since voters who flipped in 2018 and were not entirely blue in conversion could look at the spectacle and blame it on Pelosi and the House for refusing Trump's stimulus and CNN itself became easy marks since they didn't scrutinize the bill of goods McConnell was asking in return (which was wretched and unacceptable as he well knew).

Ultimately Ginsburg's death that's what sunk the Dem party. And Ginsburg's refusal to retire when the Dems had the trifecta...that's starting to feel more and more indefensible.

[InformationGeek]

Saw a bit of that press conference. That was pathetic.

[Blue22]

I'm not watching it myself, though I maybe i should.

I refuse to watch any of it. The dude is even more off his rocker than Kanye. It'd be funny if it weren't so concerning. How stuck up your own ass do you have to be to genuinely think any outcome where you don't win must mean that your opponent cheated? XD

[Mister Mets]

They called JOE BIDEN a socialist. It doesn't matter who the Democratic candidate is, the Republican Party are going to scream this at a Democrat for the next quarter century or more.

It's easier to convince the public that the name-calling is accurate if a guy has run for office as a socialist.

Maybe we should stop saying socialist. Democratic Socialist. There is a huge difference.

There is the saying in politics that if you're explaining, you're losing.

The records of certain candidates are a bit complicated. Bernie Sanders was elected to office, before the formation of the Democratic Socialists of America.

It's weird how gaslighting can so quickly become sealioning. Or how they think one link just invalidates a series of links and posts to something that's the opposite.

Anyway, from Mikel Jolett:



There was a strategic effort to cheat Americans of an actual democracy. One party clearly was doing it. One party has literally admitted to how they were doing it, as if it is okay. And that there isn't anything wrong with cheating into having a minority rule.

Don't even pretend this isn't the reality. It very much is.

THEY STILL LOST.

You still haven't demonstrated that I said anything wrong that would merit the claim of gaslighting.

And sealioning doesn't make sense in the context of an open political forum.

We should all be on board with the idea that if someone says something factually wrong, it's fine to correct it.

As for changing the goalposts to talk about the big picture, that's the defense of Donald Trump's lying, that he may be wrong on the specifics but he's right about the big question. It's fine to think the problem with Trump isn't that he lies, but that he does so on behalf of the wrong side.

[zinderel]

I agree with the ManinBlack on disagreeing with this. I posted a few pages back and a couple other times on this thread about the hate I have received because I voted Trump in 2016. I was called names, threatened, and intimidated in several Democrat events that I have been too. On stands out that I posted about before. it was like a meeting of Democrats who were having like an idea session kind of like an open hose. When I revealed that I was a person who voted for Trumo in 2016 I was booed, my ideas were discounted and I was eventually asked to leave. Even after i said I was not voting Trump in 2020. And my story is not an isolated incident. I know several former Republicans I talk to in Ohio and Kentucky who this has happened to. I made a post asking how the Dems can win people over when this kind of thing happens.

I wanted to add an edit. This kind of thing has not happened on here and I thank you all for that. it has been very civil. A lot of people on here have answered my questions and pointed out things I was wrong on but have been very polite.

That you voted for Trump in 2016 because you liked some of his promises or policies isn’t, and shouldn’t be, the end of the world. If you still supported him NOW, well...I can completely understand how some people might see that support as a direct attack on them and their ability to freely live their lives. However, the fact that you took in information, processed it, and came to the reasonable conclusion that Trump is unfit and undeserving of your support? That’s what I want ALL Trumpers to go through. Self-reflection, processing new information that doesn’t fit into their biases. And the only way to get people to go through that is to find compassion for them and work together.

The racists and nationalists and general bigots who support Trump because they want to make America white, straight and Christian ‘again’, though? They can piss right off.

[babyblob]

Saw a bit of that press conference. That was pathetic.

I was only able to watch less then five minutes. That is when NBC cut their feed of him and started pointing out his lies.

[zinderel]

I wasonly able to watch less then five minutes. That is when NBC cut their feed of him and started pointing out his lies.

Imagine if they had done that five years ago...

[Blue22]

Anderson Cooper:

"This is the President of the United States, and we see him like an obese turtle on his back, flailing in the hot sun, realizing his time is over."

B.R.U.H! XD

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So...I dare to say that after all this the reputation of third parties is gonna be even lower.

At least this year Third Parties have been true spoilers in that the Libertarians have screwed over the Republicans as well as the Dems. Last time that happened was Ross Perot.

Anyway after this, I think the GOP will finish off the Libertarians.

I do think George W Bush was a weaker candidate than McCain would have been.

I actually do think that if McCain got the nomination in 2000 he would have won the Presidency against Al Gore.

It's not clear whether coronation candidates lose because they're coronation candidates, or whether they lose because they run in weaker cycles (when their party has held the White House for two earlier terms.)

I will say that Harris and HRC have one thing in common...neither have won elections against Republicans in competitve seat races. Kamala Harris took a safe blue seat, HRC took a safe blue seat as well. Obama won a Senate seat in a competitive race in Illinois and won it by a landslide. Now of course Harris as Senator has earned a reputation for humiliating and making GOPs squirm, and she made a mockery of Pence on the VP debates.

So 2024, you might look for candidates who are GOP-beaters. Mark Kelly D-AZ might be a good pick. He's an astronaut, husband to a senator who became an icon for gun violence survival, and he helped turn AZ blue.

Conservative states aren't going to get rid of the electoral college while there is the perception is that it helps Republicans.

Dude...it ain't a perception. Your candidate ran an entire election not even making token fealty to win the popular vote which Romney and McCain both attempted and ran on.

The GOP is openly aiming not to represent the majority of the American people. It's a minority oligarchy party.

Please accept this fact. I should think that the party of Ronald Reagan who had enormous popularity across the US ought to find that offensive. I dislike Reagan but he's proof (and a warning) that a GOP can be a mass party and have a mass candidate, and at least that's someone worth contesting.

It's easier to convince the public that the name-calling is accurate if a guy has run for office as a socialist.

Biden has never run as a socialist. Not sure what you mean.

[Robotman]

Anderson Cooper:


B.R.U.H! XD

Wow that was a brutal and apt takedown.

The delayed results actually means the election process is working and all votes will be counted. But its been murder on our nerves and it’s given Twittler more time to spread his misinformation and general insanity. At the very least it’s been a slow painful finish for Trump. I can’t even imagine the chaos that is happening with him and his team as they watch his lead in Pennsylvania and Georgia slowly slip away. Though he’s such a sociopathic narcissist that I’m sure he’s truly convinced himself that there is no way he could have lost. I know Biden has had an army of lawyers ready to fight Trump’s attempts at interference and cheating. I’m hoping that they are already being sent into battle as lawsuits and bullshit are the only thing that can save Trump now.

[Jackalope89]

Wow that was a brutal and apt takedown.

The delayed results actually means the election process is working and all votes will be counted. But its been murder on our nerves and it’s given Twittler more time to spread his misinformation and general insanity. At the very least it’s been a slow painful finish for Trump. I can’t even imagine the chaos that is happening with him and his team as they watch his lead in Pennsylvania and Georgia slowly slip away. Though he’s such a sociopathic narcissist that I’m sure he’s truly convinced himself that there is no way he could have lost. I know Biden has had an army of lawyers ready to fight Trump’s attempts at interference and cheating. I’m hoping that they are already being sent into battle as lawsuits and bullshit are the only thing that can save Trump now.

A number of the lawsuits in Michigan, Georgia, and a few others were already tossed out. Some with little more than the judge looking the "complaints" over and throwing it away.

[Mister Mets]

The polls (whatever they may be worth) actually gave Biden a wider lead before the pandemic.

But that was also before the primaries, so...

If we're going strictly by polling history, Covid seems to have slightly HELPED Trump, not harmed him.

There is usually some tightening towards the end, so that may have nothing to do with Covid.

A lot of that is just common courtesy and a general preference for avoiding confrontation. But if you're a Trump voter, and you believe in the same kind of things that he believes in, then I may see you as a human being and even have fun hanging out with you, but just because we can have a beer together doesn't mean that the crazy **** that you're saying is any less crazy. And honestly, I don't understand why it's always conservatives that get their panties in a bunch about this, the other side doesn't irrationally hate you because of who you are, we just think your ideas are harmful and that we as a society would be better off if we didn't listen to you. If anything, American liberals are TOO tolerant of conservatives, if you really wanna go find common ground, go talk to some Mexican immigrants or Muslim refugees and try to see things from their point of view for once.

Pretty much everyone with political opinions ultimately thinks the other side's ideas are harmful and will make things worse. That's not a feeling unique to progressices.

Imagine if they had done that five years ago...

If the media hadn't hyped him so much in the primaries, we might have a Republican President comfortably reelected.

At least this year Third Parties have been true spoilers in that the Libertarians have screwed over the Republicans as well as the Dems. Last time that happened was Ross Perot.

Anyway after this, I think the GOP will finish off the Libertarians.



I actually do think that if McCain got the nomination in 2000 he would have won the Presidency against Al Gore.



I will say that Harris and HRC have one thing in common...neither have won elections against Republicans in competitve seat races. Kamala Harris took a safe blue seat, HRC took a safe blue seat as well. Obama won a Senate seat in a competitive race in Illinois and won it by a landslide. Now of course Harris as Senator has earned a reputation for humiliating and making GOPs squirm, and she made a mockery of Pence on the VP debates.

So 2024, you might look for candidates who are GOP-beaters. Mark Kelly D-AZ might be a good pick. He's an astronaut, husband to a senator who became an icon for gun violence survival, and he helped turn AZ blue.

Obama's general election opponent was a nutjob, a perennial candidate for other offices (Senate in Maryland; the presidency in 1996 and 2000.)

https://www.wikipedia.com/en/Alan_Keyes

To be fair, Kamala Harris did win a narrow election for Attorney General of California. The counterargument would be that the race should not have been that close.

Mark Kelly will be an interesting Senator. He's up for election again in 2022, to go for a full term. Maybe he'll be the type of guy who can keep winning elections in Arizona. Maybe he'll do worse when he has an actual record.

If Mark Kelly has a successful Senate career, he would likely be a strong presidential candidate. I don't know if the Democrats would go for a moderate white guy over a woman of color who won on a national ticket.

Dude...it ain't a perception. Your candidate ran an entire election not even making token fealty to win the popular vote which Romney and McCain both attempted and ran on.

The GOP is openly aiming not to represent the majority of the American people. It's a minority oligarchy party.

Please accept this fact. I should think that the party of Ronald Reagan who had enormous popularity across the US ought to find that offensive. I dislike Reagan but he's proof (and a warning) that a GOP can be a mass party and have a mass candidate, and at least that's someone worth contesting.

Trump's coalition performed well in the electoral college. This doesn't mean it could be replicated by every Republican.

In 2008 and 2012 Obama outperformed the electoral college, in that the tipping point state was more progressive than the country as a whole.

Biden has never run as a socialist. Not sure what you mean.

The point is that the claim that someone is a socialist has more power if used against more progressive candidates.

It's ineffective against Biden because he's had a long moderate career. But it doesn't mean that the public will ignore it the same way if someone calls a more progressive candidate a socialist.

[Robotman]

Biden now within 3000 votes in Georgia!