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  1. #736
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    The articulate words of the man with the best brain.

  2. #737
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    You keep trying to act like that was your stance all along; and that's simply not true. As untrue as saying Corbyn was against Brexit. Like blood from a stone. We'd have gotten over this three posts ago if you just owned it; rather than all this deflection and goal-post moving. Own your mistakes. Embrace them. We are all humans, we all make mistakes. It's okay. We won't shatter like glass if we admit it. We have enough dodging and swerving from politicians, do we really need to emulate that here too?


    It's only "pointless" because you can't goal-post move your way out of it. SPEAKING OF WHICH... you told me not once, but twice to "read the article" as if it was fact, not opinion (or gossip... which is all it was) and I asked you a very simple question about it.

    TRUE OR FALSE: the article quotes specifically what's in the leaked document, word for word

    Now I assume you haven't answered because the answer is "FALSE", but... again... deflection, avoidance, etc. Which I'm sure you will label as pointless and trolling to even mention, but hey, call me a stickler for the truth.


    I always dislike this sentiment. If you didn't care you'd not respond. Period. A post that says "I don't care anymore" shows only one thing: they still care enough to post that...
    Corbyn was against Brexit on a party level. On a personal level he was pro but the party wasnt so what do you do ? Follow the will of the party. Personally I found the do-over idea the best of both worlds once it was revealed how deep veritas was involved. As for Corbyn I am indeed of the opinion that he fucked up in the end. I came to that conclusion a few weeks after the vote. But imo he still did a damn good job overall at trying, especially now this leaked document (if correct) shoewcases some startling self sabotage. So what if I don't immediately point out his flaws. He's lost and irrespective of his good points and bad points the North voted Tory and are suffering from its effects. Again you can think of me what you like but its irrelevant to the matter at hand.

    Hell you've spent most of the posts trying to make me admit "im a zealot' instead of acknowledging that maybe...just MAYBE the North voted badly?

    The pointless diatribe I was trying to move on from was said attempts to prove my partisanship, nothing to do with the 863 page leaked document referenced in the article I asked you to read. Hell I literally say "READ THE DOCUMENT" not the article.

    I care enough to point out that your bizarre attempts to gotcha me are beyond me caring anymore. This post currently is merely tidying up my statements.

    The facts as they exist.
    The lengthy document exists alleging labour members
    tried to drag down the party, refused to deal with anti semetism complaints and were involved with racial bs against fellow members because they didnt like the man in charge. This is serious enough that a major inquiry is being done.

    The north voted in a party that hates them even to this day and continues to be pro austerity up to this day as well (cause nothing like telling hard working nurses their getting paycuts to really lift the spirits). It was a bad vote.

  3. #738
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Corbyn was against Brexit on a party level. On a personal level he was pro but the party wasnt so what do you do ? Follow the will of the party. Personally I found the do-over idea the best of both worlds once it was revealed how deep veritas was involved. As for Corbyn I am indeed of the opinion that he fucked up in the end. I came to that conclusion a few weeks after the vote.
    He didn't reaaaaaaaaaaaaally follow the will of the party, he merely gave in enough to not cause a riot; hence the "do over" (which was a TERRIBLE idea, the last thing we needed was yet another bloody vote; because it didn't solve anything, and risked making everything even worse).

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    But imo he still did a damn good job overall at trying, especially now this leaked document (if correct) shoewcases some startling self sabotage.
    I mean... I don't think he did a good job, personally. He lead the party to two failed elections, one being the worst for Labour in 100 years. He had more MPs resign from the party (not the cabinet, THE PARTY) under him than... anyone else in a 100 years??? He handled the antisemitism situation terribly (trying to refute the wording of IHRA's definition of antisemitism was just.... STUPID!!! In the political scenario he was in at the time, fighting it was so, so stupid). I think he was a great campaigner, a wonderful grassroots activist and a very honest man... until he became leader and power slowly and surely robbed him of those very, very noble traits. Leaving a shell of a man, who was still clinging onto power even after the second catastrophic failed election. It was a great tragedy, in that sense. But a cautionary tale.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    So what if I don't immediately point out his flaws.
    When making a list of why things happened, either make the list or don't. Don't leave out major factors because you don't like mentioning them. It's disingenuous and damages your credibility
    #truthbombOFLOVE

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Hell you've spent most of the posts trying to make me admit "im a zealot' instead of acknowledging that maybe...just MAYBE the North voted badly?
    This is the second time in this interchange you've alluded to yourself as a zealot when I've never implied anything of the sort. So... please stop it? Because it's weird, really, really weird you keep saying that, when nothing I've said has indicated that at all. Being a Corbyn support (even a die hard supporter) does not a zealot make. That is not my stance, never has been, never will be. If that's your own insecurities coming out, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's on you. I'm not taking that opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The pointless diatribe I was trying to move on from was said attempts to prove my partisanship, nothing to do with the 863 page leaked document referenced in the article I asked you to read. Hell I literally say "READ THE DOCUMENT" not the article.
    I'm going to be brutally honest here: I don't believe for one second you've read all 863 pages of that document, so don't tell me I should read it when you haven't. And you didn't link to the document, you linked to the Guardian article, so saying "that's not what I meant for you to read" is on you. Link to what you mean then, not what you don't. If I wanted you to read the BFI's "Top 100 Greatest Films" I'd link you to the BFI's Top 100 Greatest Films list, not a Guardian article about the BFI list existing

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    I care enough to point out that your bizarre attempts to gotcha me are beyond me caring anymore. This post currently is merely tidying up my statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The facts as they exist.
    The lengthy document exists alleging labour members tried to drag down the party, refused to deal with anti semetism complaints and were involved with racial bs against fellow members because they didnt like the man in charge. This is serious enough that a major inquiry is being done.
    I get so uncomfortable by statements saying "the facts are..." followed by the word "alleging". Simple grammar: an allegation is, by definition, not a fact. The fact an allegation happened is a fact, the conclusion of said allegation's inquiry is a fact (mostly, sadly, not always). But allegations are not facts... which ties this all the way back into Biden. Now others can play. HA!
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  4. #739
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    While it is nice to see people talk about politics outside of the good ole USA for once, it sounds like you two (Jetengine, Kieran Frost) are on the same page politically.

    If Corbyn had backed Brexi,t I think he would have one, but he didn't want to risk losing those labour strongholds in the North, which he ended up losing for the most part anyways. As back to my original post, there has been a fundamental ideological shift in the western world, as the white working class, now primarily votes right wing nationalist. Anyone who doubts that just needs to look at the fact that Boris Johnson just won the biggest Tory landslide in the UK since the Thatcher years...a long time ago now.

    Trump's right hand man Steve Bannon teamed up with Nigel Farage and used Brexit as the template to win the US election by concentrating on United States north, the mid west, and they smashed that blue wall to smithereens. Personally, I'm not so sure the white working class can be won back over, as the left hasn't seem to come to grips that it's historic late 19th century rival (Right wing nationalism) has returned. They seem to think that Trump & Johnson's election was a fluke, and it may take their re-election to happen before the left wakes up.

  5. #740
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    While it is nice to see people talk about politics outside of the good ole USA for once, it sounds like you two (Jetengine, Kieran Frost) are on the same page politically.

    If Corbyn had backed Brexi,t I think he would have one, but he didn't want to risk losing those labour strongholds in the North, which he ended up losing for the most part anyways. As back to my original post, there has been a fundamental ideological shift in the western world, as the white working class, now primarily votes right wing nationalist. Anyone who doubts that just needs to look at the fact that Boris Johnson just won the biggest Tory landslide in the UK since the Thatcher years...a long time ago now.

    Trump's right hand man Steve Bannon teamed up with Nigel Farage and used Brexit as the template to win the US election by concentrating on United States north, the mid west, and they smashed that blue wall to smithereens. Personally, I'm not so sure the white working class can be won back over, as the left hasn't seem to come to grips that it's historic late 19th century rival (Right wing nationalism) has returned. They seem to think that Trump & Johnson's election was a fluke, and it may take their re-election to happen before the left wakes up.
    Awwwww; this is a very sweet reply, thank-you.

    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 05-15-2020 at 05:02 PM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  6. #741
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Winning by less than 1% in a heavy voter suppression States is not smashing the Blue Wall to smithereens. Trump could win again, but it will be by the undemocratic Electoral College and not the popular vote.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #742
    Horrific Experiment JCAll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    It's just more evidence of Obama living rent free in Trump's head ever since the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner, and Adolf Twitler just can't quit him, no matter how hard he tries. Almost every action Trump has taken since 2017, including his having shitcanned that comprehensive manual on dealing with pandemics has been about trashing Obama's legacy for no other reason than simple spite and his driving need to settle a vendetta that exists only in his warped mind. At this point, it's beyond pathetic, but Trump isn't about to stop with the attacks as long as Obama draws breath.
    Not just his mind, the minds of a significant portion of his base. That vendetta is a driving reason they elected the least qualified person in the world.

  8. #743
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Not an Onion headline.

    Trump says US will beat Russia and China with a “Super Duper Missile”


    I’m betting it’ll make a huge bang bang and make all bad guys go bye bye.
    Last edited by Robotman; 05-15-2020 at 04:36 PM.

  9. #744
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Not an Onion headline.

    Trump says US will beat Russia and China with a “Super Duper Missile”


    I’m betting it’ll make a huge bang bang and make all bad guys go bye bye.
    Will the "Space Force" be in charge of the delivery system of said "super-duper missile?"

    And why does he still talk like a gadfly businessman just commenting on the news? You're the President, Donald! You get the info on these things before anyone else does. Stop talking about it like it's just a rumor that you "heard about."
    Last edited by Malvolio; 05-15-2020 at 04:49 PM.
    Watching television is not an activity.

  10. #745
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Winning by less than 1% in a heavy voter suppression States is not smashing the Blue Wall to smithereens. Trump could win again, but it will be by the undemocratic Electoral College and not the popular vote.
    Point taken, he did however win the blue wall by increasing the white vote by a rather large margin, particularly Pennsylvania.

    Now that Trump's Utopian Kool Aid has become reality, I think Biden will take Michigan, and probably Pennsylvania as well, though that state has had a lot of manufacturing pour in as a result of Trump's initiative to increase defense spending by a rather large amount. Brilliant political tactics by the way, if your trying to keep those mid west states under a Republican umbrella.

    As for the Electoral College vote, I think Democrats need to stop dwelling on that because it's near impossible to get changed. To change it you would need, two-thirds of the U.S. House of Representatives, two-thirds of the Senate, and three-fourths of the states. Good luck with that.

    The best option they have right now, is pouring as much money as they can into Florida, to help the ground support troops in that State get their supporters out and voting. If you lose Florida, it's a hard road for Biden to beat Trump.

  11. #746
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Point taken, he did however win the blue wall by increasing the white vote by a rather large margin, particularly Pennsylvania.

    Now that Trump's Utopian Kool Aid has become reality, I think Biden will take Michigan, and probably Pennsylvania as well, though that state has had a lot of manufacturing pour in as a result of Trump's initiative to increase defense spending by a rather large amount. Brilliant political tactics by the way, if your trying to keep those mid west states under a Republican umbrella.

    As for the Electoral College vote, I think Democrats need to stop dwelling on that because it's near impossible to get changed. To change it you would need, two-thirds of the U.S. House of Representatives, two-thirds of the Senate, and three-fourths of the states. Good luck with that.

    The best option they have right now, is pouring as much money as they can into Florida, to help the ground support troops in that State get their supporters out and voting. If you lose Florida, it's a hard road for Biden to beat Trump.
    Agreed.

    What would seem to be the most sensible approach is to deal with what you actually do have some degree of control over.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Will the "Space Force" be in charge of the delivery system of said "super-duper missile?"

    And why does he still talk like a gadfly businessman just commenting on the news? You're the President, Donald! You get the info on these things before anyone else does. Stop talking about it like it's just a rumor that you "heard about."
    Couldn't help reading your post in Red Skull's voice. Maybe as coaching.

  13. #748
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Agreed.

    What would seem to be the most sensible approach is to deal with what you actually do have some degree of control over.
    Thumbs up to that comment. If you want to beat Trump and your an American, than you should be doing everything you can to contribute to Biden's ground efforts to take Florida, (either by cheque, or volunteering to work on the campaign) plain and simple.

  14. #749
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Thumbs up to that comment. If you want to beat Trump and your an American, than you should be doing everything you can to contribute to Biden's ground efforts to take Florida, (either by cheque, or volunteering to work on the campaign) plain and simple.
    To me, just putting together the best effort to make an "Are You Better Off Than You Were Four Years Ago?..." pitch to a lot of those folks seems like it needs to be where the effort is.

    Just running the best "Basics..." campaign that he can under the circumstances.

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    To me, just putting together the best effort to make an "Are You Better Off Than You Were Four Years Ago?..." pitch to a lot of those folks seems like it needs to be where the effort is.

    Just running the best "Basics..." campaign that he can under the circumstances.
    Can you provide more commentary than "some people say"? Who are these people? That's a tactic Trump learnt from Fox News to make unsubstantial claims.

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