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  1. #1756
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    Re: Minneapolis, I wonder if No Drama Obama will come out and sing “Why can’t we be friends?” again...


    I have to agree with Ice Cube’s sentiment. At this point it’s just self defense really. Put some Bodycount on heavy rotation.

  2. #1757
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    Also, praising Thatcher for a couple of nice things is like praising Churchill for leading the UK during the Second World War: sure, he got them through, but he was a really fucking awful person. See: India.
    I... hmmmm... I just don't feel you have critical thinking. The overt bias in this just ruins any credibility of opinion. If you want to go after Churchill for India, which is totally valid, DO THAT! But if you can't make your arguement without drastically downplaying his good qualities "he got them through"... come on.

    If you have a good point, you don't need to stack the deck to make it. The fact you did, implies you don't have the confidence in opinion to play fair.
    #truthbombOFLOVE
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 05-28-2020 at 02:53 PM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  3. #1758
    Incredible Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    Re: Minneapolis, I wonder if No Drama Obama will come out and sing “Why can’t we be friends?” again...


    I have to agree with Ice Cube’s sentiment. At this point it’s just self defense really. Put some Bodycount on heavy rotation.
    You say that but what most don't realize just how frequently cops are being shot and sometimes killed.

    In just the last few hours a cop was shot and killed in Ogden, Utah and another shot and injured.

    https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/5/...n-ogden-police

    In the last 24 hrs at least two others have been shot, one critically in Ohio.

    https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-new...east-columbus/

    Cops are being shot on a near daily basis. Body armor and training means many survive but it happens to cops on a daily basis.

    Yes the cops in the Floyd incident at bare minimum are guilty of gross negligience. But these things only happen sporadically. Meanwhile multiple cops will be shot each week. But stoking racial fires gets more page clicks than another cop shot so you don't hear about them in most media.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 05-28-2020 at 03:30 PM.

  4. #1759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I... hmmmm... I just don't feel you have critical thinking. The overt bias in this just ruins any credibility of opinion. If you want to go after Churchill for India, which is totally valid, DO THAT! But if you can't make your arguement without drastically downplaying his good qualities "he got them through"... come on.

    If you have a good point, you don't need to stack the deck to make it. The fact you did, implies you don't have the confidence in opinion to play fair.
    #truthbombOFLOVE
    Thanks for your feelings. The point is made to the wider discussion about inspirational leaders, as Ilhan Omar found Margaret Thatcher to be inspirational. I guess I just take a more nuanced view about these things and am not prepared to let the negatives slide silently into the void. I have a view that racism and imperialism is pretty bad.

  5. #1760
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    You say that but what most don't realize just how frequently cops are being shot and sometimes killed.

    In just the last few hours a cop was shot and killed in Ogden, Utah and another shot and injured.

    https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/5/...n-ogden-police

    In the last 24 hrs at least two others have been shot, one critically in Ohio.

    https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-new...east-columbus/

    Cops are being shot on a near daily basis. Body armor and training means many survive but it happens to cops on a daily basis.

    Yes the cops in the Floyd incident at bare minimum are guilty of gross negligience. But these things only happen sporadically. Meanwhile multiple cops will be shot each week. But stoking racial fires gets more page clicks than another cop shot so you don't hear about them in most media.
    But, who started the racial fires? Were blue lives brought over in chains?

    And are cops treated as less than human because of their race? And is putting your body in harms way a simple fact of being a police officer?

  6. #1761
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    You say that but what most don't realize just how frequently cops are being shot and sometimes killed.

    In just the last few hours a cop was shot and killed in Ogden, Utah and another shot and injured.

    https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/5/...n-ogden-police

    In the last 24 hrs at least two others have been shot, one critically in Ohio.

    https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-new...east-columbus/

    Cops are being shot on a near daily basis. Body armor and training means many survive but it happens to cops on a daily basis.

    Yes the cops in the Floyd incident at bare minimum are guilty of gross negligience. But these things only happen sporadically. Meanwhile multiple cops will be shot each week. But stoking racial fires gets more page clicks than another cop shot so you don't hear about them in most media.
    Cops know what the risks are when they take the job. They know that sooner or later, they're going to be shot at. But private citizens should not have to worry about being harassed and even being assaulted or murdered by law enforcement just because they look "sort of" like someone who may have committed a crime. Hell, sometimes no crime has even been reported but the cops assault a Black man because his presence in an upscale neighborhood means he "must be up to no good."
    Watching television is not an activity.

  7. #1762
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    Thanks for your feelings. The point is made to the wider discussion about inspirational leaders, as Ilhan Omar found Margaret Thatcher to be inspirational. I guess I just take a more nuanced view about these things and am not prepared to let the negatives slide silently into the void. I have a view that racism and imperialism is pretty bad.
    I... well... sure, I suppose we're all entitled to think what we want...

    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  8. #1763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Cops know what the risks are when they take the job. They know that sooner or later, they're going to be shot at. But private citizens should not have to worry about being harassed and even being assaulted or murdered by law enforcement just because they look "sort of" like someone who may have committed a crime. Hell, sometimes no crime has even been reported but the cops assault a Black man because his presence in an upscale neighborhood means he "must be up to no good."
    Yes. People go into law enforcement specifically to inject themselves into dangerous situations. People aren't born of color for the same reason.

  9. #1764
    Incredible Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    But, who started the racial fires? Were blue lives brought over in chains?

    And are cops treated as less than human because of their race? And is putting your body in harms way a simple fact of being a police officer?
    No one alive today was brought over in chains. No one alives parents were brought over in chains. Very doubtful anyone is old to have grandparents brought over in chains. So that whole argument fails from the start. To have been brought over in chains you had to be alive in the mid 1800's. Now if you want to have a non hyperbolic discussion about how institutional racism has created a culture of poverty in the black community which in turns leads to increased crime I think you and I could have a fruitful discussion as we would probably agree on most things. Look at any crime map and any poverty map in any city in the country and you'll find they are the same map . . . . now look at minority maps and again they'll end up being the same. This map holds true though in all white areas as well as look at West Virginia (a very white state) and you'll see the crime and poverty map being the same. Poverty drives crime and many minorities are trapped in a culture of poverty due to racism. But nonetheless no one today can use the "in chains" argument and not have the other side roll eyes at them.

    And are cops treated less than human? Yes absolutely yes. Every single day all the time. I've been a cop for nearly 25 years. Not a day working patrol that I'm not denigrated, slurred, cursed at, treated less than human, etc. I couldn't even begin to guess at how many times I've been physically assaulted. Its in the hundreds. I was nearly killed in one of them it was over a week before the swelling went down enough for me to open one eye (the guy who did it was white by the way). And I work in a state where its generally considered "safe" for law enforcement because we aren't urban and people in general support law enforcement.

    We know the danger we sign up for, that is true. But that doesn't change the fact that every single week multiple cops are shot. Many more shot at. We survive in greater numbers than the past, thus lower death totals, because body armor saves our lives as does vastly greater medical technology which allows to survive wounds that would have killed us in the past. And seat belts. No one wore seat belts before the 90's so many of the cop deaths back then were traffic accidents without seat belts. Now most wear seat belts. The decrease is officer deaths is mostly due to body armor and seat belts, not a decrease in violence against police.

    I'm in no way defending the cops in the Floyd incident. As I said bare minimum the cop on top of him was grossly negligent by keeping him a position with a high risk of positional asphyxia and then made it even worse by telling him to get up over and over while staying on top of him. I haven't seen a cop online (I'm in a lot of police facebook groups) who isn't saying **** him for making us all look bad.

    I don't have an easy answer. Both sides seem way too entrenched to really listen to the other. To really make progress cops have to accept that sometimes cops are bad or really **** up . . . case in point the Floyd case. Likewise the other side sometimes needs to stop defending actual criminals who are trying to seriously harm and kill cops like Michael Brown.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 05-28-2020 at 04:16 PM.

  10. #1765
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    I don't have an easy answer. Both sides seem way too entrenched to really listen to the other. To really make progress cops have to accept that sometimes cops are bad or really **** up . . . case in point the Floyd case. Likewise the other side sometimes needs to stop defending actual criminals who are trying to seriously harm and kill cops like Michael Brown.
    I wouldn't cite Michael Brown, as the Justice Department found that the cops in Ferguson were basically nickle and diming the poor residents to death.

    When authority is used as cover for theft and oppression, it loses some legitimacy

  11. #1766
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    ...

    I don't have an easy answer. Both sides seem way too entrenched to really listen to the other. To really make progress cops have to accept that sometimes cops are bad or really **** up . . . case in point the Floyd case. Likewise the other side sometimes needs to stop defending actual criminals who are trying to seriously harm and kill cops like Michael Brown.
    Politely, it isn't just accepting it that needs to happen. The group that is being given a wage/insurance/pension paid for by the community needs to be accountable to the community in certain instances.

    All too often, that hasn't happened.

    We don't know if doing so would result in less violence against law enforcement because the degree to which law enforcement has to be accountable really hasn't changed.

  12. #1767
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Waiting for the Minneapolis police union to do the scummy thing and file an action to get those firings overturned.
    I'm waiting for that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by sammy_hansen View Post
    Zuckerberg is a product of his times - the neo-liberal economic fantasy of trickle-down economics and individualism writ large. He was indoctrinated by the almighty dollar.

    Also, praising Thatcher for a couple of nice things is like praising Churchill for leading the UK during the Second World War: sure, he got them through, but he was a really fucking awful person. See: India.

    Forgive me, but wasn't trickle-down economics a CONSERVATIVE fantasy? I always equate that to Ronald Reagan.

  13. #1768
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I wouldn't cite Michael Brown, as the Justice Department found that the cops in Ferguson were basically nickle and diming the poor residents to death.

    When authority is used as cover for theft and oppression, it loses some legitimacy
    I've had this conversation with my parents before. While Brown may not have been a very good person, the situation in Ferguson was basically a pile of sawdust, soaked with gasoline, and waiting for a match. It didn't have to be the best reason to ignite when it had been primed so heavily to do so.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  14. #1769
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    I agree that a lot of police officers are treated unfairly. Everything from slurs and insults to being attacked. Just because a person chooses to be a police offier, and that person knows they are putting them selves in harms way it does not make it okay for a criminal to attack that person. When I was in prison I heard so many stories from other inmates. Both white and black about how they resisted arrest and how they attacked the police. They were laughing about it like it was a joke and the funniest thing in the world.

    Just because a person puts on a badge does not make them racist, it does not make them a thug. There are good cops, there are bad cops. Police are just like any other people. Good and bad. I have respect for a lot of cops. Not all. I have run into some bad ones. The night I was arrested I was taken in by two police and a detective. One cop was not a jerk. The other cop treated me like shit. The detective was in the middle. He was trying to get the facts. He was not polite but he was not a dick. I had more problems with my corrections officers and parole officers more then the police.

    Police do need to be held accountable because of the power they hold. Sadly I have seen police and unions fighting this. In my town they fought tooth and nail against body cameras.
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  15. #1770
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    I'm waiting for that as well.




    Forgive me, but wasn't trickle-down economics a CONSERVATIVE fantasy? I always equate that to Ronald Reagan.
    In today's world, Reagan was a liberal. Haven't you learned that yet?

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