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  1. #3391
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly does Obama himself actually think we need a world without police? Honestly I'm kind of skeptical there.
    You'd know if you bothered to watch the videos.

    Educate yourself instead of arguing with people.

  2. #3392
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    Do you trust Lex to change his ways?

    The eternal question.

    I'm from the Gambit school of thought -- always keep your eye on the bigger picture.

  3. #3393
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    You'd know if you bothered to watch the videos.

    Educate yourself instead of arguing with people.
    I've read several interviews from him, but I'll admit I've never seen him arguing that we shouldn't not have police. If one exists and you care to point it out to me, I'd appreciate it. Unless it doesn't exist, in which case nevermind.

  4. #3394
    Spectacular Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly does Obama himself actually think we need a world without police? Honestly I'm kind of skeptical there.
    this is just being purposefully obtuse, as that’s not at all what was posted about Obama’s alternatives.

    Obama was clearly on the right track with the following...

    The task force recommendations, each with action items, are organized around six main topic areas or “pillars:” Building Trust and Legitimacy, Policy and Oversight, Technology and Social Media, Community Policing and Crime Reduction, Officer Training and Education, and Officer Safety and Wellness.

    It’s just that the GOP blocked everything and now Trump is dead set on overturning everything he can of the previous administration.

    But if Minneapolis builds its community led public safety force around those six main areas it has a chance of working just fine.

  5. #3395
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    YOu can have a person without police power do things like direct traffic... the issue being what are the consequences if pedestrians or cars don't follow it. That's where police power comes into play.

    If say a bunch of spring breakers are violating social distancing by gathering large numbers on the beach or whatever, you probably will need a law enforcement officer to break it up. Someone without police powers will have a much harder time enforcing regulations.
    Which is an "Apple" to the "Orange" that is the traffic scenario above it. Trying to make them into even remotely similar scenarios which call for a roughly equivalent approach is how we have wound up with the issues that we have today.

    To me, we should be trying to pull actual "Policing..." out of the equation in almost every instance that we can.

    Someone is ignoring traffic directions after an accident? Who thinks that actually cranking that up to a "Policing..." scenario makes even a lick of sense? Same for marijuana/related possession or passing a fake twenty. There is no logical scenario where either of those should get to anything past a "Here's Your Ticket/Show Up At Court..." level.

  6. #3396
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    this is just being purposefully obtuse, as that’s not at all what was posted about Obama’s alternatives.

    Obama was clearly on the right track with the following...

    The task force recommendations, each with action items, are organized around six main topic areas or “pillars:” Building Trust and Legitimacy, Policy and Oversight, Technology and Social Media, Community Policing and Crime Reduction, Officer Training and Education, and Officer Safety and Wellness.

    It’s just that the GOP blocked everything and now Trump is dead set on overturning everything he can of the previous administration.

    But if Minneapolis builds its community led public safety force around those six main areas it has a chance of working just fine.
    Which is my point... there aren't really alternatives to police. Just ways of improving them. Police are still needed Which is why the diagram citing a world without police is fairly flawed... even Obama would likely disgree with it.

  7. #3397
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    I feel that if they get rid of cops they'll just end up hiring private corporations. Do cops go through sensitivity training? If not, they should start with that.

    Another thing about police brutality, police on the tv show Cops are very rough with the people they catch but I never see anyone complaining about that. I wonder if being rough is just part of their training.

  8. #3398
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I feel that if they get rid of cops they'll just end up hiring private corporations. Do cops go through sensitivity training? If not, they should start with that.

    Another thing about police brutality, police on the tv show Cops are very rough with the people they catch but I never see anyone complaining about that. I wonder if being rough is just part of their training.
    Everyone loves Robocop.



    It's corrupt politicians, destructive corporations, and rogue ED 209's that are the problem.

    It's not too much to ask that cops not be racist criminals who terrorize minorities.

    And if they can't fix the problem then the American public will.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 06-07-2020 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #3399
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Which is an "Apple" to the "Orange" that is the traffic scenario above it. Trying to make them into even remotely similar scenarios which call for a roughly equivalent approach is how we have wound up with the issues that we have today.

    To me, we should be trying to pull actual "Policing..." out of the equation in almost every instance that we can.

    Someone is ignoring traffic directions after an accident? Who thinks that actually cranking that up to a "Policing..." scenario makes even a lick of sense? Same for marijuana/related possession or passing a fake twenty. There is no logical scenario where either of those should get to anything past a "Here's Your Ticket/Show Up At Court..." level.
    Traffic scenario works the same way. Not everyone will listen to the directions of a crossing guard. Gawkers might surround a traffic accident so they can film it and put it on instagram, and it might take a police officer to disperse the crowd. Because the world is an imperfect place, sometimes consequences are necessary to get people to do what's needed.

  10. #3400
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Traffic scenario works the same way. Not everyone will listen to the directions of a crossing guard. Gawkers might surround a traffic accident so they can film it and put it on instagram, and it might take a police officer to disperse the crowd. Because the world is an imperfect place, sometimes consequences are necessary to get people to do what's needed.
    That's a whole lot of "If..." and "Might..." trying to justify that you will need to have police power to contend with this "What If?..." scenario that might be created under the right set of circumstances.

    Versus that you won't actually need the "Policing..." aspect the bulk of the time.

    Never mind the possession and funny money scenarios where there will literally be almost no instances where you actually need anything above a "Ticket/Court" level approach with any potential policing happening on the back end. Double for selling a loose cigarette where someone winds up being killed once you bring the police into the equation.

    Again, you need to at least be able to entertain the possibility that you do not need a "Police" level of potential calamity in a lot of the scenarios where it currently comes into play on a pretty regular basis.

  11. #3401
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    That's a whole lot of "If..." and "Might..." trying to justify that you will need to have police power to contend with this "What If?..." scenario that might be created under the right set of circumstances.

    Versus that you won't actually need the "Policing..." aspect the bulk of the time.

    Never mind the possession and funny money scenarios where there will literally be almost no instances where you actually need anything above a "Ticket/Court" level approach with any potential policing happening on the back end. Double for selling a loose cigarette where someone winds up being killed once you bring the police into the equation.

    Again, you need to at least be able to entertain the possibility that you do not need a "Police" level of potential calamity in a lot of the scenarios where it currently comes into play on a pretty regular basis.
    The bulk of the time you DON'T need police power... it's there for the times you do. It's fair to assume MOST people will go along with that needs to be done. It's naive to assume EVERYONE will.

    It's not a what if to assume people will speed or people will illegally part or people will J walk. It's basially a certainty. But even when it happens it's usually not a big deal. Until someone gets in an accident.

    Police are like insurance... they're an investment in the event things go wrong. In a perfect world you don't need them... but they're there if you do.

  12. #3402
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The bulk of the time you DON'T need police power... it's there for the times you do. It's fair to assume MOST people will go along with that needs to be done. It's naive to assume EVERYONE will.

    It's not a what if to assume people will speed or people will illegally part or people will J walk. It's basially a certainty. But even when it happens it's usually not a big deal. Until someone gets in an accident.

    Police are like insurance... they're an investment in the event things go wrong. In a perfect world you don't need them... but they're there if you do.
    Again, that's a lot of "What If?..." trying to justify that you could take policing out of the equation in most situations.

    When people are being killed in the current lay of the land? You've got to ask yourself why you wouldn't want to take them out of every potential situation that you could.

  13. #3403
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    this is just being purposefully obtuse, as that’s not at all what was posted about Obama’s alternatives.

    Obama was clearly on the right track with the following...

    The task force recommendations, each with action items, are organized around six main topic areas or “pillars:” Building Trust and Legitimacy, Policy and Oversight, Technology and Social Media, Community Policing and Crime Reduction, Officer Training and Education, and Officer Safety and Wellness.

    It’s just that the GOP blocked everything and now Trump is dead set on overturning everything he can of the previous administration.

    But if Minneapolis builds its community led public safety force around those six main areas it has a chance of working just fine.
    Minnesota has had Democratic Governors since 2011. Minneapolis has had Democratic mayors since Richard Erdall's two-day tenure in 1972. The one person on the city council who is not a Democrat is a member of the Green party.

    It seems a stretch to blame the GOP for the poor governance in Minneapolis.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #3404
    Spectacular Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Traffic scenario works the same way. Not everyone will listen to the directions of a crossing guard. Gawkers might surround a traffic accident so they can film it and put it on instagram, and it might take a police officer to disperse the crowd. Because the world is an imperfect place, sometimes consequences are necessary to get people to do what's needed.
    first of all, with adequate funding and training there’s no reason why a crossing guard can’t be as effective as a police officer at directing traffic.

    second, the main concern is ending police brutality and systemic racism so bringing up concerns about crossing guards directing traffic pales in comparison, obviously all these different aspects of policing and who and how to replace them will have to be addressed, but I’m not sure why the assumption is that no one’s going to address them when they create the community led force to replace the disbanded police department

  15. #3405
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Everyone loves Robocop.
    I was immediately reminded of him.

    And also saddened to remember the movies made clear he was a one in a thousand/million cop who could be trusted with that much power for the good of the public.

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