1. #16456
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    The United States is a center right nation
    No it's not. Again this morality play idea isn't actual political analysis. It's a collection of stereotypes masquerading as thought.

    (The people of Idaho are good honest people,
    Not innately so. Not anymore innately good and honest compared to people from NYS, CA, IL or anywhere else. This is again based on a stereotype that people in rural areas are somehow true and real Americans.

    but rural areas are conservative, and aren't usually forward thinking)
    This idea that rural areas are also innately conservative and backward thinking is also not inherent or permanent. And it's a little offensive frankly. Rural areas are filled with pockets where you have liberal voices and others, often under-represented or unheard because of gerrymandering and noxious politics. And in this case, from liberal opinions who accept and perpetuate bad stereotypes.

    3. Two term limit (Stops popular charismatic leaders like Obama & Clinton from running again, elimination of this rule would favour democrats) this of course is different than the two above.
    What if a Republican like Reagan comes along again? He would have won a third and fourth term easily if it was available. He would have taken out Dukakis.

    In a hypothetical head to head contest between Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton, Reagan would have beaten Clinton in 1992 easily. The only reason Clinton won 1992 was because of Ross Perot eating HW's votes.

    Bill Clinton never won a majority of the US popular vote. He never made it to 50% leave alone more than 50%. He only won a plurality. He won more votes than his opponents (HW and Perot and Dole and Perot) but never made it to 50%. Heck if Bill Clinton ran for a third term in 2000, it's a good chance W. wins against him the same way he won over Al Gore. Al Gore only eked a plurality of the popular vote in 2000 as well, same as Bill.

    IT's not at all true that elimination of a two-term limit would favor Democrats.

    If the Republican Party is smart they will incorporate some of Trump's ideas, moderate them and move back to the center, because the center is where elections are won and lost.
    Again that's not inherently true that centrism are where elections are won and lost. Plenty of evidence against that.

    You may win one or two elections by mobilizing the hardcore base, but overall it's an election loser, which is why Trump is out of power.
    Far more people voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016 and he lost. He didn't win in 2016 simply because he mobilized the hardcore base and he didn't lose in 2020 because he actually mobilized his hardcore base.

    See this is the problem of morality play logic. Finding one simple grand explanation and theme.

    They passed various bills that helped with education, poverty and other progressive legislation, because when your in power you get to do meaningful things, when your out of power, you just get to sit on the opposition benches.
    That stuff didn't go far enough and was mostly undone thanks to the Iraq War and the Economic Recession anyway.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-07-2020 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #16457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The United States is a center right nation
    You misquoted me for the sake of an argument which I find offensive, here is the full quote of what I said.

    The United States is a center right nation because of laws that were designed to equalize regional disparities in power, which of consequence, favours conservatism.

    1. Equal senators for each state. (This holds the general population captive to the most regressive backward thinking States. (The people of Idaho are good honest people, but rural areas are conservative, and aren't usually forward thinking)
    2. The electoral college vote (Allows parties to obtain a majority without the popular support of the most populous urban areas)
    3. Two term limit (Stops popular charismatic leaders like Obama & Clinton from running again, elimination of this rule would favour democrats) this of course is different than the two above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This idea that rural areas are also innately conservative and backward thinking is also not inherent or permanent. And it's a little offensive frankly. Rural areas are filled with pockets where you have liberal voices and others, often under-represented or unheard because of gerrymandering and noxious politics. And in this case, from liberal opinions who accept and perpetuate bad stereotypes.
    Historically rural areas are centers for conservatism, urban areas for progressivism. If this was not the case, Idaho, Wyoming and Utah would be blue states, and New York and California would be red.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Again that's not inherently true that centrism are where elections are won and lost. Plenty of evidence against that.
    Elections are traditionally won in the center in the Anglosphere, because that is where the majority are, once people have a comfortable job and are paying taxes they don't want dramatic change. The further left and right you go, to the fringes, the crazier people get...hence the existance of Donald Trump.
    Last edited by The no face guy; 11-07-2020 at 06:14 PM.

  3. #16458
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No it's not. Again this morality play idea isn't actual political analysis. It's a collection of stereotypes masquerading as thought.




    But I think you have a great understanding of everything else.

    Meanwhile ... I will be watching this on loop ...

    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 11-07-2020 at 06:14 PM.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  4. #16459
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    2 pictures for everyone's amusement...

    Count.jpg

    RealMAGA.jpg
    Dark does not mean deep.

  5. #16460
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Speaking of Jimmy ...

    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  6. #16461
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Junior is literally calling for 'Total War'

    Attachment 102119

    How does anybody in their right mind support this family? They're completely sick
    I like how he thinks that booting out an unfit leader is somehow indicative of a ‘banana republic’, but allowing said unfit, pro-fascism leader and his children to remain in power and begin a dynasty while continuing to loot the people is somehow healthy governing...

  7. #16462
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Eight hours after I learned Biden was declared the winner, I feel more relieved than elated over the outcome. It’s hard to be happy knowing that:

    —the country is perhaps more divided today than it ever has since perhaps the Civil War

    —despite his horrific mishandling/bungling/negligence with the virus, more people voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016

    —Trump will be in office for two months, given he’s a sore loser, god only knows what sort of madness he’ll unleash on his way out

    —Moscow Mitch is still around to be a human roadblock to everything Biden wants to accomplish

    Sure it’s great that Trump is done, but I can’t bring myself to celebrate knowing there’s plenty of problems ahead for the country.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  8. #16463
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Eight hours after I learned Biden was declared the winner, I feel more relieved than elated over the outcome. It’s hard to be happy knowing that:

    —the country is perhaps more divided today than it ever has since perhaps the Civil War

    —despite his horrific mishandling/bungling/negligence with the virus, more people voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016

    —Trump will be in office for two months, given he’s a sore loser, god only knows what sort of madness he’ll unleash on his way out

    —Moscow Mitch is still around to be a human roadblock to everything Biden wants to accomplish

    Sure it’s great that Trump is done, but I can’t bring myself to celebrate knowing there’s plenty of problems ahead for the country.
    Mitch won’t be around forever. I think it’s perfectly ok to feel both relaxed and tense. I think we need more people to feel that way. As of now, barring any shenanigans by the right, we the people won. We got an incompetent petty tyrant out of power before he could COMPLETELY destroy us, but he did a lot of damage. And laid bare that the foundations we all thought were so secure are rotting. We need to do a lot of work to not only restore our standing in the world, but to our own people. The next four years will be better without a Trump steering, but we can’t get complacent just because we don’t see some new nonsense from the official Twitter feed of the President that sets a shitty tone for the day. We got complacent under Obama. Well, some of us did. The last four years have shown us what complacency gets us. I can only hope we learned our lesson and will keep pushing for progress.

    I’m taking the win and relaxing...but I’m not retiring. If that makes any sense...?

  9. #16464
    Spectacular Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    it’s finally over, congrats to Biden and Harris

    lol at Trump

  10. #16465
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Kamala speaking for the first time as Vice President elect. Wearing suffrage white. 100 years after the 19th Amendment is ratified we have a female Vice President who is a POC!

  11. #16466
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    But I think you have a great understanding of everything else.
    Thanks. In my defense...

    Morality plays are these stories intended to teach you a moral. This is the good thing to do, this is the bad thing to avoid. As a metaphor, I meant to summarize how people after an election quickly go to "this is the good thing to do" and "this was the bad thing to avoid" and then after that draw larger conclusions on faulty reasoning..."this kind of policies are electable" "this kind of candidate can win" and so on and so forth. This is the morality play reasoning after an election where people assume one big cause or another made it work a certain way.

    Elections aren't like that. They are complex messy things. A particular candidate with a set of policies that loses once doesn't mean another candidate with the same policies can't win or do better. A charismatic candidate can lose to a no-charisma incumbent (Beto losing to Ted Cruz is a good recent example). And again winning elections in and of itself doesn't validate you. Otherwise Stacey Abrams would be some dead-end loser and Brian Kemp the guy people will be writing pol. sci. theses on, when in fact the reverse will be what is happening.

    And everyone is guilty of morality play reasoning, across the spectrum. I myself have indulged in it before. Morality play reasoning can be dangerous for perpetuating false narratives and self-defeating stereotypes..."only centrism can win", "voter base is inherently conservative", "white working class voters condemned the Democrat Party", "POC defected to Trum" ad nauseam.

    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    You misquoted me for the sake of an argument which I find offensive, here is the full quote of what I said.
    Sorry if you felt bad about that. That said I don't want to respond to all of that because I felt I addressed it before.

    Historically rural areas are centers for conservatism, urban areas for progressivism.
    When you say "Historically" that's a bold claim there.

    And it's not true. During the American Civil War, New York City was completely Democrat aka white supremacist aka anti-Civil War aka sub rosa Pro-Confederate and totally Anti-Lincoln, extremely right wing. The Draft Riots happened in NYC, one of the worst race riots in US History. And also the Tulsa Pogrom, happened in an urban area too. The most radical (white) abolitionist of his time, John Brown, lived in predominantly rural parts of America, and Missouri was the center of violent abolitionist-slaveowner battles. Look up "Bleeding Kansas". Cities haven't always been super progressive bastions. The contemporary rural-urban divide isn't always forever all-times and all-places. There were parts of the American South that were pretty urban and still supported slavery, you know New Orleans. The American abolitionist movement, the real militant abolitionists came from the Religious Revival and concentrated in rural areas.

    I can list other examples but you get the idea. As far as 2020 goes, the city of Miami went majority Democrat this election but by a much thinner margin than other cities. So it's not that Republicans do badly in cities inherently.

    If this was not the case, Idaho, Wyoming and Utah would be blue states, and New York and California would be red.
    California for most of the 20th Century was a Republican Red State. Richard Nixon was Californian, Ronald Reagan was Californian. And even now California has parts of it that are pretty regressive, or libertarian (especially Silicon Valley). In 2020, Floridians voted to increase the minimum wage by $15 while Californians voted to allow Uber and other services an exemption to not provide health care and benefits to employees. 4 million people in California voted for Trump in 2016, the highest number for any US state. As for New York, parts of New York are conservative and New York City had a Republican Mayor in Giuliani in the '90s who was popular, in the 2000s they had Michael Bloomberg, an Independent-leaning Mayor who was a small-l Liberal. And then there's Andrew Cuomo, the Mitch McConnell of the Democrats in terms of obstructionism, craftiness, cunning and blatant opportunism...the stories people tell of this guy as a Governor of the city are stuff of legend.

    The further left and right you go, to the fringes, the crazier people get...hence the existance of Donald Trump.
    How is that then Donald Trump got elected in 2016, a year of a popular Presidency who oversaw a booming economy that expanded and ended the Recession then? Hmm? What about Brexit? Why did the UK walk out of an agreement that was directly benefitting its economy in a big manner?

    2016 is a refutation of the idea that people who are economically well taken care of and so on are immured from fringe ideas. They aren't.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-07-2020 at 06:52 PM.

  12. #16467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    it’s finally over, congrats to Biden and Harris

    lol at Trump
    Last I checked it’s not January 20th 2021 and Trump is still President until then and can do a lot of crazy and unhinged things in his lame duck period.
    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

    - Charles Schultz.

  13. #16468
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Bet him. Tell him to put his money where his mouth is. He will slink away.
    That's the best answer.

  14. #16469
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    Last I checked it’s not January 20th 2021 and Trump is still President until then and can do a lot of crazy and unhinged things in his lame duck period.
    While certainly detestable, Moscow Mitch is no one's fool and will certainly look to keep a leash on Trump until he can be rid of him.

  15. #16470
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    ...

    What if a Republican like Reagan comes along again?
    He would have won a third and fourth term easily if it was available. He would have taken out Dukakis.

    In a hypothetical head to head contest between Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton, Reagan would have beaten Clinton in 1992 easily. The only reason Clinton won 1992 was because of Ross Perot eating HW's votes.

    Bill Clinton never won a majority of the US popular vote. He never made it to 50% leave alone more than 50%. He only won a plurality. He won more votes than his opponents (HW and Perot and Dole and Perot) but never made it to 50%. Heck if Bill Clinton ran for a third term in 2000, it's a good chance W. wins against him the same way he won over Al Gore. Al Gore only eked a plurality of the popular vote in 2000 as well, same as Bill.

    IT's not at all true that elimination of a two-term limit would favor Democrats.

    ...
    What are the actual odds of that happening?

    Reagan was in a pretty singular spot of being able to follow up on Carter's foreign policy when it came to a communist country. Never mind just the basic reality that he had said communist country to play off of.

    It's a time that I tend to doubt that any future Republican will ever have anything even remotely similar to.

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