1. #25741
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Are relations between the Saudis and the US progressive policy now? What does that have to do with Universal health care or immigration reform?
    US foreign policy is something that can indeed be progressive or not.

    Sure a lot of folks would like to just ignore that reality and change the subject to internal policy, but it doesn't actually change that reality.

  2. #25742
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    You labeled them unrealistic fantasies. I simply asked a reasonable question, which you neglected to answer.

    Nobody's selling you anything. With the GOP the way it is, any sort of progressive legislation is limited. You want to blame the Democrats for the situation created by the Republicans. If you want the situation to change, get out there and motivate progressives to get registered and vote. More progressive Democrats in Congress and the Senate will get us closer to the changes you want to see.
    My understanding is that his argument is that it's a mistake to label progressive policies as unrealistic fantasies, and that doing so is counterproductive as it makes Democrats give up on the policies.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #25743
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    US foreign policy is something that can indeed be progressive or not.

    Sure a lot of folks would like to just ignore that reality and change the subject to internal policy, but it doesn't actually change that reality.
    Nope. I'm not getting drawn into a long, miserable, pointless debate with you about what does or doesn't constitute reality or progressive policy. Find someone else's time to waste 30.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    My understanding is that his argument is that it's a mistake to label progressive policies as unrealistic fantasies, and that doing so is counterproductive as it makes Democrats give up on the policies.
    Yes, you understand correctly. Again, he labeled them as unrealistic fantasies. He also failed to answer my question.
    Last edited by ChadH; 03-04-2021 at 06:23 PM.
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  4. #25744
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Nope. I'm not getting drawn into a long, miserable, pointless debate with you about what does or doesn't constitute reality or progressive policy. Find someone else's time to waste 30.

    ...
    To put it simply...

    There is no debate to have.

    Just letting a guy who headed up having someone was residing in the states murdered get away with no actual personal consequences?

    That would be the opposite of what an actually "Progressive..." foreign policy would look like.

    Never mind if this is essentially a true headline...

    https://******.com/article/biden-ret...2d1c2d4dd3be33

    (Associated Press News article...)

    Analysis: Biden retreats from vow to make pariah of Saudis

  5. #25745
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    https://thehill.com/policy/internati...over-khashoggi

    Omar introduces bill to sanction Saudi crown prince over Khashoggi killing

  6. #25746
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Yes, you understand correctly. Again, he labeled them as unrealistic fantasies. He also failed to answer my question.
    I do think incrementalism is an inherently problematic philosophy, because as our history amply demonstrates, while we're waiting we for these era-defining issues to solve themselves, new problems are constantly popping up. And the cumulative effect of all of that creates an extremely combustible powder keg that can explode into far more chaos and violence than if we were just willing to bite the bullet from the get go and accept some short term pain in order to achieve a long term solution. Now, you can say that we should just focus on getting whatever we can done in the public sphere, while gradually working on a permanent and lasting solution in the background, but where do you actually see that latter part being done? Whether you're talking about health care, education, the environment, immigration, racial justice, or whatever, you'd be hard pressed to argue we are any closer to solving any of these issues than we were 30 years ago, and I don't see any indication that we'll be any further along another 30 years from now. If we must have gradualism, we need to have long term plans that our leaders are willing to commit to and that the public is willing to buy into, we can't just give up on every political fight, and then keep kicking the can down for future generations to deal with, we already know what the results of that will be.

  7. #25747
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I do think incrementalism is an inherently problematic philosophy, because as our history amply demonstrates, while we're waiting we for these era-defining issues to solve themselves, new problems are constantly popping up. And the cumulative effect of all of that creates an extremely combustible powder keg that can explode into far more chaos and violence than if we were just willing to bite the bullet from the get go and accept some short term pain in order to achieve a long term solution. Now, you can say that we should just focus on getting whatever we can done in the public sphere, while gradually working on a permanent and lasting solution in the background, but where do you actually see that latter part being done? Whether you're talking about health care, education, the environment, immigration, racial justice, or whatever, you'd be hard pressed to argue we are any closer to solving any of these issues than we were 30 years ago, and I don't see any indication that we'll be any further along another 30 years from now. If we must have gradualism, we need to have long term plans that our leaders are willing to commit to and that the public is willing to buy into, we can't just give up on every political fight, and then keep kicking the can down for future generations to deal with, we already know what the results of that will be.
    Don't mistake my acknowledgement of the current situation as satisfaction with it. I'm just as impatient for real, lasting social progress as you are and I honestly have no idea how to make it happen. It seems to me, the logical first step would be to remove the roadblocks to progress set in place by corporations and wealthy donors. The way to accomplish that is through campaign finance reform. Freeing legislators from their responsibility to their largest contributors will give them the latitude they need to vote with their consciences. If you have any real, actionable suggestions please share them.
    Last edited by ChadH; 03-04-2021 at 07:50 PM.
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    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
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  8. #25748
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    I agree with Omar on this but just because she introduces the bill doesn't automatically make it Official Progressive Policy. It doesn't actually impact social policy in the US, so much as espouse a certain level of morality separate from Progressive or Conservative ideals.
    Last edited by ChadH; 03-04-2021 at 08:17 PM.
    The Cover Contest Weekly Winners Thread So much winning!!

    "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
    "Being politically incorrect shouldn't be a matter of pride. It's the last gasp of the wrong side of history." - Unknown
    "By all means, compare these s**t-heads to Nazis." - Mike Godwin referring to the protesters in Charlottesville.

  9. #25749
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Don't mistake my acknowledgement of the current situation as satisfaction with it. I'm just as impatient for real, lasting social progress as you are and I honestly have no idea how to make it happen. It seems to me, the logical first step would be to remove the roadblocks to progress set in place by corporations and wealthy donors. The way to accomplish that is through campaign finance reform. Freeing legislators from their responsibility to their largest contributors will give them the latitude they need to vote with their consciences. If you have any real, actionable suggestions please share them.
    For starters?

    You stop knuckling under almost every single time that it looks like something might actually be difficult.

    There are plenty of folks that set aside the reservations that they had about Biden based on that he was all "Well, Maybe Next Time?..." when it came to Card Check.

    You have a bunch more of those while he is in his first term with Congress?

    Why wouldn't folks say "Yeah, I'm Done Giving This Garbage The Benefit Of The Doubt..."?
    Last edited by numberthirty; 03-04-2021 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #25750
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    While I'm not usually the "Razzing Them Is Anything Like An Actually Productive Use Of Time..." sort of a guy, somebody needs to ask McConnell about this a couple of dozen times over the next couple of weeks...

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/03/u...al-report.html

    Inspector General’s Report Cites Elaine Chao for Using Office to Help Family
    Last edited by numberthirty; 03-04-2021 at 09:07 PM.

  11. #25751
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    For starters?

    You stop knuckling under almost every single time that it looks like something might actually be difficult.

    There are plenty of folks that set aside the reservations that they had about Biden based on that he was all "Well, Maybe Next Time?..." when it came to Card Check.

    You have a bunch more of those while he is in his first term with Congress?

    Why wouldn't folks say "Yeah, I'm Done Giving This Garbage The Benefit Of The Doubt..."?
    Maybe the Democratic Party needs the equivalent of a Tea Party...a strong faction within it to force it leftwards, as the Tea Party forced the Republicans to the right??

    The equivalent in the UK (the Momentum group that acted to force the Labour Party left, leading to election of Jeremy Corby as Labour Leader) wasn’t really successful.

    But conditions aren’t that similar in US..and US left can actually point to policies that in US are regarded as impossible fantasies ( universal health, better gun control, smaller prison populations, less dangerous policing) actually happen in other countries.

  12. #25752
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    "Less Dangerous Policing..." is almost a separate set of problems off on it's own.

    While not entirely removed from the "Going To 'Use Of Force...' Way Too Quickly..."?

    I'm not even sure that government and law enforcement are ready to seriously just make an attempt at dealing with this aspect of things -

    https://abc7chicago.com/*********pol...eath/10389586/

    Chicago police suicides: Sergeant pens letter demanding change after officer's death at Lakeview station

  13. #25753
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, in the reality, the Democrats are set to provide the average family of four $7200 a year.

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    Republicans Who Voted To Overturn Election Say Congress Should Stay Out Of Elections

    GOP lawmakers didn’t care about leaving elections to the states when they tried to hand victory to Trump on Jan. 6. The hypocrisy is strong in Qpublicans.

    **********

    Insurrectionist Photographed In Nancy Pelosi’s Office Says It’s Unfair He Remains Jailed

    “They’re dragging this out. They’re letting everyone else out,” Richard Barnett yelled during a court hearing. All together now....WOMP WOMP!

    **********

    Jeanine Pirro’s Unhinged Racist Rant: Immigrants Bring ‘All Kinds Of Diseases’

    The Fox News host is accused of echoing Nazi rhetoric in an off-the-rails rant against migrants and essential workers. Hmm! I wonder if she also included WHITE immigrants? My guess? NAHHHHHHHH!

    **********

    West Virginia’s GOP Governor Calls Lifting Mask Mandates An Ill-Advised ‘Macho Thing’

    “I don’t know really what the big rush to get rid of the mask is, because these masks have saved a lot of lives,” said Jim Justice. WOW! A rational thinking Republican! As rare as a two dollar bill these days.

    **********

    Trump Goes Full Cancel Culture As He Angrily Demands Fox News Fire Karl Rove

    The former president was apparently triggered by a Wall Street Journal column. I guess Trump is no fan of cancel culture since he was cancelled. Heh!

    **********

    For Many Rioters, The Capitol Insurrection Was A Family Affair

    Some families planned to attend Trump’s “stop the steal” rally like it was a trip to Disney World. Then they stormed the Capitol together. The family that does prison time together, stays together.
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  15. #25755
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Trump Appointee At VOA Parent Paid Law Firm Millions To Investigate His Own Staff

    Last summer, an appointee of former President Donald Trump was irate because he could not simply fire top executives who had warned him that some of his plans might be illegal.

    Michael Pack, who was CEO of the U.S. Agency for Global Media that oversees Voice of America, in August suspended those top executives. He also immediately ordered up an investigation to determine what wrongdoing the executives might have committed.

    Instead of turning to inspectors general or civil servants to investigate, Pack personally signed a no-bid contract to hire a high-profile law firm with strong Republican ties.

    The bill — footed by taxpayers — exceeded a million dollars in just the first few months of the contract.

    Government Accountability Project, a nonprofit that represents federal whistleblowers accusing Pack and some of his inner circle of breaking U.S. laws and regulations, shared an analysis it conducted of documents related to the contract between Pack and the law firm.
    The documents, obtained under the federal Freedom of Information Act, are likely to add to Pack's troubles even out of government; his actions have inspired numerous rebukes from federal and Washington D.C. judges and in findings from official government investigators, and he remains the subject of other formal reviews.

    The group's analysis of the new documents, shared with NPR, found the law firm McGuireWoods charged more than $320 per hour for 3,200 billable hours from August through October alone. It devoted five partners, six associates, two lawyers "of counsel," two staff attorneys, seven paralegals, three case assistants, 14 other timekeepers, and 11 "outsourced attorneys" to the work.
    "The 'deliverables' provided by McGuireWoods are — always were — of questionable value," he wrote. "The investigations produced nothing that could justify the kind of discipline Mr. Pack sought to impose on current USAGM employees he did not like — he wanted them fired (they have since been reinstated). Investigations of former employees also yielded nothing."
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