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  1. #13066
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Your argument is based on what you believe to be Hunter Bidens' supposed lack of qualifications for a job and what Warren said while competing against Biden for the nomination.

    Warren has come out in support of Biden since his nomination, so where does that leave your argument?
    Unless you have an instance where she has changed how a Warren Presidency would address the issue in question, nothing has changed.

    Choosing to support a flawed candidate? Doesn't mean that you have decided to excuse every unacceptable thing they are doing/have done.

  2. #13067
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    What I'm hearing just sounds like...

    "How Dare Warren Suggest Doing More To Wall Of Public Service From Issues/Potential Issues?..."

    Which is what folks should actually be backing.

  3. #13068
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChangingStation View Post
    As for the Republicans, in my view the Extremists have to be voted out, if only so that the sane members of the Republicans can start retaking control of the party. The ones who actually recognise when the Democrats have a good idea and build on it, rather than the kind of idiots who seem obssessed with destroying anything that benefits the Government that wasn't passed by their party. (This goes for any Government really, but it's worth addressing).
    For that to happen anti-Trump Republicans would have to grow spines and organize. The only way the GOP will change its course is if enough of these supposedly sane conservatives make their thoughts and feelings heard. The GOP has come to the realization that it makes more sense to focus their energy on engaging with the hard-core nutters in their party because the main-stream Republican cowards will fall in line no matter how crazy things get.
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  4. #13069
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    For me, personally, as a former Never-Trumper Republican who now likely qualifies as a moderate Democrat, it’s not so much just Trump or just the Rpeublican Party; it’s the way both have come together to exacerbate and poison that side of politics.

    While Trump definitely provided someone direction and force to the GOP to create Trumpism, it would be a mistake to think he hadn’t also seized onto a movement that had been growing to control the GOP beforehand, or that the movement exercise some answering control over him as well.

    Fascism requires more than just a single demagogue - it requires collaborators, willing followers, and the growth of the more grotesque parts of the human mind among the populace.

    Getting rid of Trump will damage his personal cult of perosloty, and lead the fascistic section of the GOP looking for a new partner... but it’s not going to immediately defuse a situation whereby factions of the GOP that once represented traditionalists, capitalists, and Christ Followers have allowed the slaves to fully transform into vicious bigots, kleptocrats, and “Christian Pharisees.”

    There was already a part of the GOP more likely to punish others for being different instead of use what worked on the past for security in the present, already a part more likely to be lazy and greedy in the current economic quarter than plan ahead towards long term profit and to value comparative wealth over “the rabble” instead of actual wealth for all, and already “believers” far more likely to crucify Christ for valuing people over culture and comfort rather than show the fruits of the spirit towards strangers.

    Fox News was already poisonous before Trump came to power.

    There’s a reason why John McCain’s defining actions in his last years, preventing McConnel’s Repeal and Replace maneuver on Obamacare and having Obama give his eulogy, have greater impact than just as “Never-Trumper” moves - both are just as rooted in acknowledging the way the GOP was wrong in defining itself as just Anti-Obama in the decade before his death... even as McCain himself was a part of that movement.
    Here's what the never Trumpers have yet to adequately , if you strip away all the racist and fascist elements away from the modern GOP and bring it back to its supposed ideological roots, then what exactly do you have left? Are we really supposed to believe that there is a significant proportion of the country that believes you can be committed to religious fundamentalism, government so small you can drown it in a bathtub, and aggressive military expansion abroad, yet somehow do it all in a nice and "civil" way that doesn't harm or offend anyone? Conservatism in America has never been a coherent ideology, and the people who advocate for it most strongly never actually believed it in enough to practice any of what they preach, these are not people that you can ever reason with or compromise with.

  5. #13070
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    Well, given how the GOP have alienated themselves to the electorate, it is highly unlikely they'll br a Republican president legitimately elected in my lifetime who isn't Trump.

    If any of them had shown a backbone the past four years, I'd have someone in your party to root for among them.

    But they're all cowards. Obviously.
    Parties tend to bounce back from major defeats.

    Richard Nixon wins 49 states in 1972, and a Democrat wins the next presidential election.

    Obama becomes the second Democrat since LBJ to win a majority of the popular vote, and liberals imagine a period of permanent Democratic control. And then Republicans win the US House in the midterms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There hasn't been escalation on both sides.

    Antonin Scalia was appointed unanimously. Republican nominees by H. W. Bush which were moderate like Souter were uncontroversial as was O'Connor. The Dems have given voice and appointed Republican nominated judges even when they had Senate majorities. So one side has given advise and consent to the other party, and it's the Democrats. The Republicans haven't repaid in kind.

    Robert Bork, Nixon's own Bill Barr, was a ghoul of the first degree who was gunning to overturn Civil Rights altogether. The Democrats warned Reagan against nominating him, and Reagan crossed a line by legitimizing and nominating someone that extreme to the SCOTUS. The fact that you can't recognize or acknowledge that, and most Republicans who blather about that blocking a some line and so on, is the problem here. Bork should be someone to reject not embraced.

    This is the major issue with Republicans, even moderate Republicans, the total lack of responsibility, accountability, and accepting blame.
    I saw a list of judicial grievances that was kind of telling.

    https://twitter.com/Jamie_Weinstein/...28748488081408

    Dem Grievances:
    - McConnell blocking Obama judicial nominees.
    - Garland
    - Nuke option for SC
    - Republican inconsistency on election year appointments.

    GOP Grievances:
    - Bork
    - Thomas hearing
    - Filibustering Miguel Estrada for DC court
    - Accusing Alito of being a bigot causing wife to cry
    - Filibustering Alito
    - Reid ending filibuster for jud noms other than SC
    - Filibustering Gorsuch
    - Kav hearing

    There are a lot of reasons for Republicans to be pissed.

    Some of these are defensible in isolation. You could argue that Bork was a uniquely troubling Supreme Court choice, although I wonder how many agree that every word of Ted Kennedy's "Robert Bork's America" speech was fair. It is worth noting that the next Democratic President had his Supreme Court choices go through on a 96-3 vote and an 87-9 vote, so it wasn't taken that personally.

    But this does add up. And there is plenty that Democrats did. The filibustering of Estrada because he was latino was particularly insidious.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #13071
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Unless you have an instance where she has changed how a Warren Presidency would address the issue in question, nothing has changed.

    Choosing to support a flawed candidate? Doesn't mean that you have decided to excuse every unacceptable thing they are doing/have done.
    It means she understands where priorities should lay.

    What I'm hearing just sounds like...

    "How Dare Warren Suggest Doing More To Wall Of Public Service From Issues/Potential Issues?..."

    Which is what folks should actually be backing.
    You're hearing what you want to hear.
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  7. #13072
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    GOP Grievances:
    - Bork
    - Thomas hearing
    - Filibustering Miguel Estrada for DC court
    - Accusing Alito of being a bigot causing wife to cry
    - Filibustering Alito
    - Reid ending filibuster for jud noms other than SC
    - Filibustering Gorsuch
    - Kav hearing

    There are a lot of reasons for Republicans to be pissed.
    Not any good reasons. Clarence Thomas was accused credibly of sexual misconduct by Anita Hill and other employees. And even then when it came to vote, Thomas got confirmed with Democrat Senators voting to confirm him. Brett Kavanaugh was also credibly accused of sexual misconduct. If the Republicans can't do basic background checks and hire clean candidates, then it's their fault and not the Democrats.

    Some of these are defensible in isolation. You could argue that Bork was a uniquely troubling Supreme Court choice, although I wonder how many agree that every word of Ted Kennedy's "Robert Bork's America" speech was fair.
    Every word Ted Kennedy said was true.

    The filibustering of Estrada because he was latino was particularly insidious.
    Estrada was filibustered because he was being rushed through despite the fact that he had no experience as a judge, no career as an academic and aside from being recommended by The Federalist Society, had no other credentials aside from working on the legal team of Bush v. Gore. In other words an obvious crony appointment by the Republicans much like the slew of incompetents McConnell has been stacking the judiciary with during Trump's term.

    Again this is bad faith. Democrats raised legitimate complaints about the appointments Republicans made but you equate the fact that these complaints were made as equivalent to Republican escalation. They aren't.

  8. #13073
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    To follow up what I posted earlier.

    It seems a judge was sending folks away from voting for wearing pink and green AKA (Harris's sorority) or just plain clothes. Something that judge had been getting away with for a few days. They finally moved him.

  9. #13074
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    It means she understands where priorities should lay.

    ...
    You do not need to prioritize actually being a politician who has no ethics issues.

    There is no potential downside to being an ethical politician.

  10. #13075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I can see the resemblance. Trump has the Anti-Life Equation

    Of course Kirby saw this coming
    Glorious Godfrey is based on Billy Graham. And Darkseid (like Palpatine) was based on Richard Nixon. Trump and the current iteration of the GOP are basically the natural evolution of the Nixon era Republicans and their bags of dirty tricks.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 10-18-2020 at 02:58 PM.

  11. #13076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Parties tend to bounce back from major defeats.

    Richard Nixon wins 49 states in 1972, and a Democrat wins the next presidential election.

    Obama becomes the second Democrat since LBJ to win a majority of the popular vote, and liberals imagine a period of permanent Democratic control. And then Republicans win the US House in the midterms.
    Watergate damaged the GOPs credibility in a way it took Raegan to fix. And even then there were a perfect storm of factors that enabled it.

    The first Bush screwed up on Election Year and paid for it. And the second Bush only won due to one state.

    The same happened in 2008 with the Recession, and the unpopular (if not) illegal Iraq War the Bush Administration put forth. Combined with Obama's charisma it's no surprise he won.

    Trump was facing an already deeply unpopular candidate who only got further bogged down and he still lost the popular vote (though not by much).

    You're not wrong about the tendency of both sides to think they have the upper hand and get cocky, but I get the feeling that the Republicans are going to have a harder time recovering every time.
    Last edited by ChangingStation; 10-18-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  12. #13077
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChangingStation View Post
    Watergate damaged the GOPs credibility in a way it took Raegan to fix. And even then there were a perfect storm of factors that enabled it.

    The first Bush screwed up on Election Year and paid for it. And the second Bush only won due to one state.

    The same happened in 2008 with the Recession, and the unpopular (if not) illegal Iraq War the Bush Administration put forth. Combined with Obama's charisma it's no surprise he won.

    Trump was facing an already deeply unpopular candidate who only got further bogged down and he still lost the popular vote (though not by much).

    You're not wrong about the tendency of both sides to think they have the upper hand and get cocky, but I get the feeling that the Republicans are going to have a harder time recovering every time.
    Bush I was in 2 unique situations. First, he represented the first time one party had held onto the White House for longer than 8 years since Truman. It isn't much of a stretch to consider Bush not as a one term President, but as Reagan's third term. Second, the election had the strongest 3rd party run I remember in my lifetime siphoning votes - maybe the strongest 3rd party attempt since Theodore Roosevelt started the Progressive Party that inadvertently led to Woodrow Wilson's election.
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  13. #13078
    Incredible Member 4saken1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Here's the obvious problems with the way you are framing this...

    - Not wanting the most corrupt version of things does not mean having to accept a less corrupt version of thing as something workable. It isn't.

    - "Perfection..." is usually what folks haul out when they are trying to avoid actually discussing just how much a less corrupt Democratic Party could get done if they made an even slight move towards being better public servants. No one is saying "I Would Like Perfection..." That said, "I Would Like A More Upright Democratic Party That Is Doing More To Look Out For John/Jane Public..." is something that it is always odd to see people just run from discussing.
    One conviction versus over 100 ISN'T. EVEN. COMPARABLE!
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  14. #13079
    Incredible Member 4saken1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    So, that said...

    Where is the logical argument for that the average voter should just be fine with a politician's kids being in a position to get a leg up based on that their parent holds political office.

    They shouldn't.

    Every single voter in America deserves better than that.

    You should not have to bend a politicians arm into being a acceptable version of what they should be. No one had to strong arm Warren into saying "That Garbage Probably Would Not Fly In A "Warren..." Administration..."

    Which is exactly what voters should want and be able to get out of their public servants. Without having to even ball up a fist to scare them into being that.
    Nobody here is saying it should or shouldn't be acceptable. Just that it is beyond Joe Biden's purview. Is that so hard to comprehend?
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  15. #13080
    Incredible Member 4saken1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Its cool to see you have some Dems in there and want Biden to win. So not a straight party ticket.

    But I do want to ask why if you want Trump out that you still want Mitch and Graham to win their races when they are huge Trump Boosters and his lackeys and will Block Biden at every turn. If the Gop retains the Senate and if Mitch and Graham stay in pretty much nothing will change as they will block everything Biden and The Dems try and do.

    So isnt a vote for Biden and rooting for the other two kind of counter productive? Not trying to start a thing just want to hear your reasons.
    I believe this is exactly the position that Mets is in. Trump has become a toxic asset. Better to endorse the Democratic candidate while maintaining a Republican controlled Senate, in effect making Biden a lame duck, and having a weak Biden Presidency will make for a stronger case for a Republican President in 2024. It has the added benefit of making Mets appear to be somebody that has more reasonable 'moderate' views.
    Last edited by 4saken1; 10-18-2020 at 03:51 PM.
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