All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Steel Inquisitor]

I agree with you, the new far right is taking the form of a religious cult, because it is totally void of any logical beliefs based of rational empiricism and verifiable facts.

The thing that disturbs me about it though, is that even though (Much of it) tends to deny the scientific racism & segregational views of traditional white supremacists, there is still this narrative that if immigration isn't controlled soon, and whites become a minority, American civilization will lose its cultural identity and enter into decline.

(Hence Ann Coulter's pronouncement to put a moratorium on immigration to prevent the US turning into Brazil) That really creates an all or nothing siege mentality amongst their followers, so I'm not surprised when I see militia men calling for civil war.

As for Fox news, outside of Hannity's paranoia, they don't really bother me, I find CNN to be just as bias, I'm more bothered by the right wing nationalist and conspiracy stuff like Breitbert, Alex Jones, OAN, and even George Noory Coast to Coast that pushes speculative conspiracy theories. This is the audience Trump will be aiming for if he gets his streaming show off the ground.

For me the argument isn't left vs right, but moderates vs extremists. As a liberal moderate, I'm happy to debate a moderate conservative, but I refuse to engage with someone on the far left or right, I've found it's a waste of my time.

The Republican "moderates" aren't as different from the Trumpers than you think, in fact the neocons were the precursors to the Trump cult. They codified that they make their own reality which makes truth irrelevant - this is paraphrasing an infamous line from Karl Rove. They adored a dumb, racist puppet who had problems digesting media, one example was how W.'s staff had to make up a dvd to get him to understand information vital to being president. They created an environment which oppressed protesters, and degraded Muslims. They gamed the system to dominate politics and they stole an election from the Democratic challenger. They may couch their words in more cerebral terms and pretend to be more civilised but Trump is just saying the quiet part out loud.

CNN's really, really bad but they're not as bad as Fox News.

[The no face guy]

The Republican "moderates" aren't as different from the Trumpers than you think, in fact the neocons were the precursors to the Trump cult. They codified that they make their own reality which makes truth irrelevant - this is paraphrasing an infamous line from Karl Rove. They adored a dumb, racist puppet who had problems digesting media, one example was how W.'s staff had to make up a dvd to get him to understand information vital to being president. They created an environment which oppressed protesters, and degraded Muslims. They gamed the system to dominate politics and they stole an election from the Democratic challenger. They may couch their words in more cerebral terms and pretend to be more civilised but Trump is just saying the quiet part out loud.

CNN's really, really bad but they're not as bad as Fox News.

As a Canadian, I make it a rule of thumb not to watch too much American media (Fox/CNN) because I find they are unobjective cheer leading machines for Republicans or Democrats, I'll take your word on Fox though.

Consequently, Republican or Democratic moderates once in power, have to absorb some of the ideas of the hardliners to keep them happy, and although the Bush administration had some disturbing authoritarian policies, as a whole they kept the right wing Buchannan nationalists in the party isolated, to the point the grassroots had a revolt, and ousted Jeb for Trump. If Biden and Harris completely isolate the Alexandria Cortez's from the party they will run into the same problem.

Now I am going to tread lightly hear, because I know as an American cousin you are living in a more right wing climate than I am, so I shall just say this....

Once you start to see the other side of the political spectrum as evil and your mortal enemy, it's a good sign that your probably adopting some hardline or extremist political views. Moderate conservatives are your rivals, your intellectual adversaries that your in a duel to defeat, because at the end of the day politics is about power. (I will concede that Karl Rove is evil though for advocating unlimited lobbying)

The far right and left are different, in that you are the enemy if you dissent from their worldview. Two examples, 1) Watch the footage of the SJW's who attacked the mayors apartment in Portland after he tried to have a sit in with them, because he thought he could be there friends. 2) Look at the Trump train goons who almost ran a woman of the road Texas, because Democrats didn't belong in "their territory."

I can reason with a moderate and have an intellectually challenging discussion that will end politely and promptly...you can't engage in a rational discourse with political extremists. They are so reverent in their beliefs that they will keep gunning for you.

[CJStriker]

”The World is Starting to Ignore Trump.”

[Malvolio]

The Republican "moderates" aren't as different from the Trumpers than you think, in fact the neocons were the precursors to the Trump cult. They codified that they make their own reality which makes truth irrelevant - this is paraphrasing an infamous line from Karl Rove. They adored a dumb, racist puppet who had problems digesting media, one example was how W.'s staff had to make up a dvd to get him to understand information vital to being president. They created an environment which oppressed protesters, and degraded Muslims. They gamed the system to dominate politics and they stole an election from the Democratic challenger. They may couch their words in more cerebral terms and pretend to be more civilised but Trump is just saying the quiet part out loud.

CNN's really, really bad but they're not as bad as Fox News.

Trump says with a bullhorn what other Republicans say with a dog whistle.

[Robotman]

Trump says with a bullhorn what other Republicans say with a dog whistle.

He’s really not as blunt or “honest” as people give him credit for. He still uses plenty of dog whistles and is too cowardly to say his vile thoughts out loud. When he does go too far he just says he was joking or denies he said what was clearly recorded, which is the ultimate cop-out.

His cult members love it because the racist and sexist things he’s implying are very clear but he still maintains deniability. And don’t that just drive us libtards crazy. 240,000 Americans dead from COVID and the economy is in the toilet but we owned the libs!!!

[WestPhillyPunisher]

”The World is Starting to Ignore Trump.”

And there's nothing Trump hates more in the world than being ignored.

[Tendrin]

President Donald Trump used executive orders to put up roadblocks for unions representing federal employees, and now President-elect Joe Biden seems poised to reverse those moves.

In May 2018, President Donald Trump signed executive orders mandating stricter deadlines and procedures when federal workers collectively negotiated new contracts, curbing on-the-clock time for union duties as well as giving some under-performing workers tight time frames to boost their performance.

In January 2021, newly-inaugurated President Joe Biden is likely to pull back those same orders, according to union members, who say the orders have weakened their ability to ensure rank and file staffers are treated fairly.


The Biden transition team didn’t respond to a request for comment, but Biden’s campaign website has signaled that the president-elect will address these issues: “There’s a war on organizing, collective bargaining, unions, and workers. It’s been raging for decades, and it’s getting worse with Donald Trump in the White House.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgntp

[Tami]

Anyone else feeling this way?

Four Wasted Years Thinking About Donald Trump

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Anyone else feeling this way?

Four Wasted Years Thinking About Donald Trump

Great article, thanks for sharing. Yeah the old "bad times are good for art" argument was always stupid, should have been gunned down, and dumped in a ditch.

The last 4 years were really hyper-politicized for better and for worse. For better because it made a ton of people politically engaged and having difficult conversations that should have been had a long time ago. For worse because politics has kind of replaced sports and culture. Who knows though where things go from here?

[Tami]

Great article, thanks for sharing. Yeah the old "bad times are good for art" argument was always stupid, should have been gunned down, and dumped in a ditch.

The last 4 years were really hyper-politicized for better and for worse. For better because it made a ton of people politically engaged and having difficult conversations that should have been had a long time ago. For worse because politics has kind of replaced sports and culture. Who knows though where things go from here?

I haven't watched a sitcom, documentary, or even an anime in four years. Most of my TV watching has been the news. Fiction is also taking a back seat to other reading.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I haven't watched a sitcom, documentary, or even an anime in four years. Most of my TV watching has been the news. Fiction is also taking a back seat to other reading.

I have watched and read a lot, and played a lot of games, I will admit, but...I get what you mean. It hasn't really been the same.

Sometimes politics and culture have this symbiotic counterpoint. If things are bad in one place but things are good somewhere else...it produces a weird mixture.

To give an example. I was a reader of 616 Spider-Man comics until OMD. That came out 2007-2008. That event demoralized me and depressed me and it made me quit reading superhero comics (I actually got into indie and non-mainstream titles) but then Obama became candidate and president at about the same time. And that to me kind of put my mind off the bitterness. I actually became re-engaged in those old issues with Spider-Man after Trump got elected. I joined CBR Community posting in Spider-Man boards to talk about issues that were inside me but unresolved since 2007. And the funny thing is, when Trump lost...some of that bitterness about Spider-Man kind of faded. Not that I think I am wrong (about OMD being a mistake and so on), it's like the intensity got dulled. I don't know how to explain it. So for me, a political optimism makes me less militant about culture, I find. A week before the election, I felt Spider-Man issues were life-and-death stuff, even during the Pandemic and Lockdown, now reality has entered and it's something I don't feel as strongly about as before. I haven't posted much on the Spider-Man boards lately.

I think that also applies to the big issues over the last four years...think of the Game of Thrones finale and how intense the backlash was. Sure it was bad and all, poor in execution, but the intensity of that backlash I think also stems from the overall disappointment people had to politics in that time. Their favorite show being bad was another level of disappointment and betrayal added to the disappointment of the real world. I was pretty upset about GOT myself but again that intensity has faded, not that I think it's good...it's like if I met someone who said they liked GOT now and the finale, before I would have given him a funny look and sarcastic eyebrow, now I might just shrug. The Last Jedi, the disapppointment felt by some (excluding the racist backlash of course), I think that also had to do with that. But while I still don't think TLJ is the masterpiece everyone makes it out to be (I think it's an overlong mess with interesting and good scenes mixed with weak ones but on the whole most interesting film of the Disney SW movies), the level of disappointment and so on has faded.

[SquirrelMan]

Nobody saw THIS coming:

Passenger tests positive for coronavirus on first cruise ship to sail Caribbean since pandemic

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Nobody saw THIS coming:

Passenger tests positive for coronavirus on first cruise ship to sail Caribbean since pandemic

Feels like this song probably played on ship at some time...during this voyage. For full irony points.

[Mister Mets]

Aren't you the guy obsessing over people's motivations for wanting to make ED a holiday. Why would someone like you give the Dems a pass for merely changing the rhetoric? If we take you as a sample for the Republican, the question must be asked if you actually buy the substance of "Defund the Police" and merely have issues with the rhetoric.



The evidence is that the overwhelming black turnout was driven by the Defund the Police movement. So maybe the Dems don't campaign on "defund the police" and get some House and Senate seats but lose the Presidency? Who knows?

The fact is that "Defund the Police" that's not going away.



HRC was heavily favored to win in 2016, what's your point?



Outperformed is a strange definition for Senate races in a heavily Red State. Qanon Kelly Loeffler got fewer votes than Warnock in the open election, maybe the vote-splitting will help her who knows. As for Perdue, GA's own State Sec called him out for having his re-election bid going into runoff and then getting sour grapes asking him to resign.

If it was the Dems in a similar situation, we certainly wouldn't be happy with this going into runoffs.

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here, with a perception that because I suspect a particular flaw, I'm willing to engage in it myself should it benefit my side. I think it would be wrong to use higher moral claims as pretext for something else regardless of whether it helps Democrats or Republicans. Just because I think some Democrats will occasionally do something doesn't mean I'll try it (nor does it mean that I think Republicans will never try it.)

I'll also note that I don't suggest that everyone who wants Election Day to be a holiday is doing so for bad reasons. I'm sure many people make that argument in good faith, and that's especially true of the people on this board, who are mainly amateurs, rather than political campaigners, whose job involves making things more advantageous for their side.

I could reasonably come to a conclusion that moderates do perform better in political races. We could see that in 2020 when Susan Collins outperformed Trump. I'll be very curious to see how prominent progressive members of Congress did in compared to Biden.

I would imagine that when someone loses a race that they're heavily favored to win, they would consider how they screwed up.

When I said Republicans outperformed Democrats in the Georgia senate races, I just means that Perdue got more votes than Ossoff, and that the combined Republicans in the special election got more votes than the combined Democrats. I wasn't suggesting that Perdue or Loeffler ran better campaigns or anything like that. Georgia may have been redder in the past (at the moment, it's about three points more conservative than the national average) and Democrats have done pretty well in the state, but what makes a difference to who controls government is who wins in January.

I fail to see how the possible morality of the motivation for getting more people to vote effects the outcome if it's a net good decision, especially as you already said that you get why "So, what?" is the correct response when it's greedy people being given incentive to do right. And again, I see no argument for not doing it...other than fear that actually having more peoples voices heard might possibly mean less power for conservatives which isn't a good reason at all for wanting to limit voter turn out.

In the back and forth a few days back, something that was largely ignored was the argument about why Election Day shouldn't be a national holiday.

My argument was about how people overlook the significance of primaries in American politics. But we can also consider the downsides of making a new Holiday.

There are productivity losses with an additional day off work, and costs for employers. I know some jurisdictions get around that by swapping Election Day for Columbus Day, but this does require people giving up a three day weekend for a Tuesday off. I'm not sure how many people want to do that.

There is the whole question of whether it's necessary. Turnout's been pretty good in recent elections, and the last election showed the advantages of increased early voting and mail-in ballots, things that aren't actually done on the first Tuesday after the first Monday on November. Much of the process of elections doesn't actually occur on Election Day. People have to learn about the issues, and register to vote.

There is a practical question of how many additional people will be voting if it's a holiday. Those who don't vote would still have to register, and learn about the issues. They'll also still have plenty of temptation to just stay home, or do what they could otherwise do with a Tuesday off (if Monday is a personal day, that's a four-day weekend.)

You may disagree with me, but I have clearly articulated a concern that making one type of elections but not another into a national holiday is pushing people to have greater involvement in one type of race and not another, when primaries do determine more winners than general elections do. This is something that will benefit some people in politics and not others.

I'll note that I don't know what the effects of greater involvement in primaries will be. Perhaps ordinary people will be more likely to vote against their elected representatives for dumb and ignorant reasons. Perhaps they'll be more ignorant about politics than activists, and more likely to vote for the incumbents that they recognize. Perhaps it'll lead to a greater appreciation for how government works, and a populace better able to keep elected officials accountable.

[Powerboy]

As a Canadian, I make it a rule of thumb not to watch too much American media (Fox/CNN) because I find they are unobjective cheer leading machines for Republicans or Democrats, I'll take your word on Fox though.

Consequently, Republican or Democratic moderates once in power, have to absorb some of the ideas of the hardliners to keep them happy, and although the Bush administration had some disturbing authoritarian policies, as a whole they kept the right wing Buchannan nationalists in the party isolated, to the point the grassroots had a revolt, and ousted Jeb for Trump. If Biden and Harris completely isolate the Alexandria Cortez's from the party they will run into the same problem.

Now I am going to tread lightly hear, because I know as an American cousin you are living in a more right wing climate than I am, so I shall just say this....

Once you start to see the other side of the political spectrum as evil and your mortal enemy, it's a good sign that your probably adopting some hardline or extremist political views. Moderate conservatives are your rivals, your intellectual adversaries that your in a duel to defeat, because at the end of the day politics is about power. (I will concede that Karl Rove is evil though for advocating unlimited lobbying)

The far right and left are different, in that you are the enemy if you dissent from their worldview. Two examples, 1) Watch the footage of the SJW's who attacked the mayors apartment in Portland after he tried to have a sit in with them, because he thought he could be there friends. 2) Look at the Trump train goons who almost ran a woman of the road Texas, because Democrats didn't belong in "their territory."

I can reason with a moderate and have an intellectually challenging discussion that will end politely and promptly...you can't engage in a rational discourse with political extremists. They are so reverent in their beliefs that they will keep gunning for you.

Whatever the Democrats and the old school Republicans may have been, they were both the Parties of the Possible. Then you ended up with the Tea Party which was arguably the Party of the Impossible. Or, rather, the party of "We want one hundred percent our own way about everything and scrooge compromise" which is reality and the very nature of politics. But this led to Trump which might have been thought impossible.

But, more and more, the Republican party is becoming the party that cannot be reasoned with. It's like trying to reason with a Young Earth Creationist. There is a set of alternative facts/ alternate reality and there is no discussion. It may be only a bit of an exaggeration to say I would gladly have a rational discussion with a Republican. Now, just find me a rational Republican. I'm not talking about people at the top who are rationale but can't stay in office if they try to swim against the River Ignorance. But the everyday voter.

Strange thing to say here but... The average Republican voter today is an Evangelical Christian who is a Republican because they are against abortion. Why are they against abortion? Well, there's a long list of lies but it comes down to picturing the fetus as a newborn baby that it isn't and because the Bible says it's wrong to have an abortion (actually, it has women executed for adultery while pregnant and defines life as breathing on your own) and that's all that matters because the Bible is the Word of God because it says that in the Bible. It's the same with the anti-environment stance which a lot of it comes from the idea that "God" will step in and deal with all the problems since the Earth won't be here much longer anyway and it's all part of the divine plan, etc., etc., etc. In other words, baseless claims based on other baseless claims based on innuendo based on assertions without the slightest evidence. And that is what you're dealing with when you're dealing with the average Republican. And that doesn't even get into the whack job conspiracy theories which are becoming the norm.

Dealing with an extremist liberal is a bit different. It's just reaching too far too soon. You might get the occasional conspiracy theory but it's usually stuff like wanting to completely do away with Capitalism or things that may actually be good ideas but it's not going to sell, it's reaching for the stars and refusing to settle for the Moon when you could have had it. Now, the funny thing is that, in many ways, I think of myself as being at the Liberal extreme. I was certainly at the extreme when I was younger, in the 1970s, let's say. Gay Rights, Trans Rights, National Health Care, Income Equality and steps to insure it for all races and women. Nowadays, none of those are particularly extreme left. Doing away with Capitalism? Still extreme. Maybe I don't think of Liberal extremism as extremism because I tend mostly to agree with it. But just because it may be going too far too fast for a lot of people does not put it in the same category as Conservative extremism which, as I said, goes directly against science, facts and evidence and now even generates it's own alternate reality of alternative facts.