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  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    You're criticizing me for cherry-picking by responding to points about affirmative action in the workplace with an example of a court decision on voting rights.

    The larger impetus for this discussion was the question about whether Mitch McConnell thinks he's wrong, so a bill passed by the Arizona legislature in 2016 isn't obviously relevant to that discussion.
    It's relevant to the larger discussion of discrimination in both the Republican party and America in general.

    Even more so than a singular study about a group of college students in Chicago.

    And how you rarely address said discrimination directly and instead rely on data and talking points to avoid doing so.

    I get that you are presenting "conservative" arguments but the reality is that most of us have already heard them before.

    Again -- that's your option and it's a common technique but it's likely not going to progress the dialogue in any meaningful manner.

    Safe to say claiming "it's wrong" and still supporting the party is not progress is the eyes of many.

    Edit: I can admit my error in assuming most of us have already heard these arguments before -- it's not my place to make that assumption.

    My goal isn't to impede dialogue but to have a more effective dialogue.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-24-2020 at 01:49 PM.

  2. #1442
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    I'll add that it's not that hard to say "I'm not a Republican any longer."

    I've already pointed out that I'm not a Democrat -- because neither party holds a monopoly on the truth.

  3. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I'll add that it's not that hard to say "I'm not a Republican any longer."

    I've already pointed out that I'm not a Democrat -- because neither party holds a monopoly on the truth.
    The closest Mets comes is "Well I'm not voting for Trump, I'm voting Democrat" which...you know is nice and all but doesnt really mean much. Its like gunning down a ton of people and going "HEY, at least I'm not using a flame thrower"

  4. #1444
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The closest Mets comes is "Well I'm not voting for Trump, I'm voting Democrat" which...you know is nice and all but doesnt really mean much.
    I wouldn't say that personally.

    Progress is progress.

    The problem lies in the fact that Republicans tend to revert to form once Democrats save them from the tragic decisions of their leaders.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-24-2020 at 01:03 PM.

  5. #1445
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    "Why did you change you mind?"

    "Because I was tired of denying facts and being a hypocrite."


    And supporting the Republican effort -- initiated by Nixon -- to incarcerate African-Americans and "the left" for drug possession.

    The backwards logic of having to leave Congress -- as a Republican representative -- before doing "research" and voting accordingly.

    -----
    "You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news.

    Did we know we were lying about the drugs?

    Of course we did."


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/polit...pie/index.html
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-24-2020 at 01:42 PM.

  6. #1446
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I'll add that it's not that hard to say "I'm not a Republican any longer."

    I've already pointed out that I'm not a Democrat -- because neither party holds a monopoly on the truth.
    But I remain a Republican, partly to be able to vote for better candidates in future primaries.

    Individuals have greater impact in primaries than in the general election. Do you not vote in primaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The closest Mets comes is "Well I'm not voting for Trump, I'm voting Democrat" which...you know is nice and all but doesnt really mean much. Its like gunning down a ton of people and going "HEY, at least I'm not using a flame thrower"
    Someone voting for people you don't like should not be seen as in any way comparable to mass murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I wouldn't say that personally.

    Progress is progress.

    The problem lies in the fact that Republicans tend to revert to form once Democrats save them from the tragic decisions of their leaders.
    There is a separate point on how the argument is framed.

    "Donald Trump is uniquely terrible" is a different argument with a different goal post than something like "Mitt Romney is beyond the pale, and comparing him to Donald Trump is a distinction without a difference."

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    It's relevant to the larger discussion of discrimination in both the Republican party and America in general.

    Even more so than a singular study about a group of college students in Chicago.

    And how you rarely address said discrimination directly and instead rely on data and talking points to avoid doing so.

    I get that you are presenting "conservative" arguments but the reality is that most of us have already heard them before.

    Again -- that's your option and it's a common technique but it's likely not going to progress the dialogue in any meaningful manner.

    Safe to say claiming "it's wrong" and still supporting the party is not progress is the eyes of many.

    Edit: I can admit my error is assuming most of us have already heard these arguments before -- it's not my place to make that assumption.

    My goal isn't to impede dialogue but to have a more effective dialogue.
    It wasn't a larger discussion about discrimination in the Republican party and America. It was a discussion about whether Mitch McConnell might believe he was doing the right thing.

    A point being made was that the resumes of African-American job applicants would demonstrate that they are worthy of employment. This requires the resumes to be equivalent.

    To go to your point on the University of Chicago, it would be cherry-picking if the statistics for that university were really unusual. I'll admit I picked a random top-tier law school, and that it may not be representative of all law schools.

    So we could look at information for all law schools.

    https://www.enjuris.com/students/law...race-2018.html

    African-Americans and Hispanic Americans remain underrepresented, relative to their share of the population. That information actually understates the difference, because white people are over-represented among older age groups, whereas there are a greater percentage of African-Americans and Hispanic Americans among the age groups likely to go to law school. This also covers JD enrollment, and not people who graduate. Minority students do have a greater attrition rate.

    https://www.accesslex.org/xblog/aba-...rition-figures

    One may think law is somehow unique as a profession, although there is a similar under-representation in medicine.
    https://www.aamc.org/system/files/20..._Table_B-3.pdf

    There are numerous contributing factors to the racial gap in higher education. Minority parents are less able to pay for college education, or for young adults to spend several more years getting their education. Heavily segregated public schools are less likely to have the resources to prepare their students for higher education. If your social circle doesn't include lawyers and doctors, one is less likely to see that as a possible career pathway. Higher incarceration rates resulting from racist policies and individual decisions do result in a loss of family cohesion.

    The end-result is that resumes aren't the only pathway to equity.

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post


    "Why did you change you mind?"

    "Because I was tired of denying facts and being a hypocrite."


    And supporting the Republican effort -- initiated by Nixon -- to incarcerate African-Americans and "the left" for drug possession.

    The backwards logic of having to leave Congress -- as a Republican representative -- before doing "research" and voting accordingly.

    -----
    "You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news.

    Did we know we were lying about the drugs?

    Of course we did."


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/polit...pie/index.html
    I remain unaware that a majority of elected Democratic members of Congress or statewide officeholders are in favor of marijuana legalisation.

    As far as I know, this remains a policy supported by a majority of elected officeholders on both sides.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  7. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Someone voting for people you don't like should not be seen as in any way comparable to mass murder.
    I believed the same, until recently. It's not a question of voting for someone I don't like. It's about voting for someone who has demonstrated being ok with mass murder.

  8. #1448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There is a separate point on how the argument is framed.
    Framing has been an issue from the start -- I pointed that out in a previous dialogue as well.

    It limits the dialogue to the paramaters you have set and doesn't allow for a larger view of the entire picture.

    It also might help to remember that you're talking to (arguing with mostly) many of said African-Americans who went to -- or couldn't afford to go to -- "good" schools and dealt with those issues firsthand.



    If Republicans have a better solution to offer -- whether on school or discrimination in general -- it says a lot that nearly all of us have yet to see it.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-24-2020 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #1449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But I remain a Republican, partly to be able to vote for better candidates in future primaries.
    It would be really awesome if you became a Democrat in order to vote for people who actually want to be better candidates.

  10. #1450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    Someone voting for people you don't like should not be seen as in any way comparable to mass murder.
    Why not? Charles Manson never killed anyone yet he was charged with murder. How many Americans died in Puerto Rico during/after Hurricane Maria because trump refused to help them? During the pandemic we've seen that some governors in blue states had trouble seeking assistance from trump. How many died from that/

  11. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Why not? Charles Manson never killed anyone yet he was charged with murder. How many Americans died in Puerto Rico during/after Hurricane Maria because trump refused to help them? During the pandemic we've seen that some governors in blue states had trouble seeking assistance from trump. How many died from that/
    Yeah, how much indifference to suffering do we have to see before it becomes murder on the part of people who could act, but refuse to?

  12. #1452
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    "DeVos Faces Pushback Over Plan To Reroute Aid To Private School Students"

    "Congressional Democrats have accused U.S. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos of trying to reroute hundreds of millions of dollars in coronavirus aid money to K-12 private school students. The coronavirus rescue package, known as the CARES Act, included more than $13 billion to help public schools cover pandemic-related costs.

    In a Wednesday letter co-signed by Rep. Bobby Scott, Sen. Patty Murray and Rep. Rosa DeLauro, the lawmakers said DeVos' efforts run "in contravention of both the plain reading of the statute and the intent of Congress." Scott is chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee, and Murray is the ranking member of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

    This admonition comes about three weeks after DeVos issued guidance suggesting that private schools should benefit from a representative share of the emergency aid.

    Most of the money set aside for schools in the CARES Act is meant to be distributed based on how many vulnerable, low-income students a district serves, the lawmakers said — the same way the federal government hands out Title I dollars. It's an old formula meant to send money where it's needed, including to some low-income private school students in the form of "equitable services" such as tutoring or transportation.

    In the Education Department's interpretation of the CARES Act, though, the agency argues that private schools should receive these subsidized services based on how many students they serve overall, rather than just their share of low-income students. This could mean, in places with large private school populations, districts serving low-income students could be required to spend relief money on more affluent, private school neighbors.

    In practice, here's what the difference would look like: In Louisiana, under the low-income student formula, the state Department of Education reports private school students would receive services worth $8.6 million of the state's CARES Act relief money. Under the department's broader interpretation, that share would jump to $31.5 million — a 267% increase.

    The department's initial guidance, issued on April 30, confused many school leaders, prompting a letter from the Council of Chief State School Officers, telling DeVos that, if the guidance is not revised, it "could significantly harm the vulnerable students who were intended to benefit the most" from the CARES Act relief.

    In a letter to New Jersey's governor, the head of the Education Law Center, a policy and advocacy group, calls DeVos' directive "a patent misreading" of federal law and warns that, under this interpretation, Newark Public Schools would have to redirect an additional $800,000 of aid from its own pupils to area private school students.

    Tennessee's schools chief has reportedly said she plans to abide by the department's guidance, though other school leaders have been defiant, noting that the directive is not legally binding.

    On May 12, Indiana's Republican superintendent of public instruction, Jennifer McCormick, tweeted that, after consulting with her state's attorney general, she would ignore the guidance. "I will not play political agenda games with [COVID-19] relief funds," she said."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...chool-students

  13. #1453
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    "Trump Escalates Attacks On Mail-In Voting, Tying Coronavirus To ‘Rigged Election’"

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisette...gged-election/

  14. #1454
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    See, the problem is that too many people saw Affirmative Action as the be all-end all, when it should have been the first step. Then you have to do something to convince resentful white men that the beneficiaries of Affirmative Action are qualified for their positions and didn't just get them to fill a quota. Their mere presence in the workplace or university won't do it.
    One thing AA did was get more black people into college and hence access to an equal education. That was in the 1970s. By now, to argue that someone got the job only because of AA. you'd have to backtrack and say someone got into college and got an equal shot at the required education due to AA which is essentially saying, "How dare you level the playing field and give people the background to even try to qualify".

    One of the more recent arguments is, "What about poor white people? They don't have an equal chance and there's no AA for them" which is a really clever argument by people who can afford it to keep their monopoly when the solution is not to undo all the good that's been done but do more good like, say, free tuition or getting it back to a reasonable cost like it once was.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  15. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    One thing AA did was get more black people into college and hence access to an equal education. That was in the 1970s. By now, to argue that someone got the job only because of AA. you'd have to backtrack and say someone got into college and got an equal shot at the required education due to AA which is essentially saying, "How dare you level the playing field and give people the background to even try to qualify".

    One of the more recent arguments is, "What about poor white people? They don't have an equal chance and there's no AA for them" which is a really clever argument by people who can afford it to keep their monopoly when the solution is not to undo all the good that's been done but do more good like, say, free tuition or getting it back to a reasonable cost like it once was.
    That's an unrealistic argument in that white women are likely the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action.

    Ignorance is usually the problem -- not the laws or policies themselves.

    Especially when it's willful ignorance.

    The internet exists -- there are no more excuses.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-24-2020 at 03:26 PM.

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