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  1. #1741
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    This statement is a sad indictment on American politics today. Not because it is untrue but because of how true this is. Scandal after Scandal. Statement after Statement. Tweet after tweet you styill have people saying that Trump is one of the greaatest presidents of all time. And they mean it. Trump can do and say what ever he wants and his supporters are going to over look it and make excuses while the pople who hate him are going to say well we were right all along. What about the people on the fence about Trump? lets be honest if you are on the fence about Trump at this point then you really are either unable or unwilling to understand the truth.
    You’re either a bystander or an activist at the end of the day, and in any case, and I’ve thought this before, but I hope what happened with George Floyd serves as further pressure and motivation for all the justice systems to reorganize themselves with less corruption and more responsibility, working with with activists or whatever it takes to do so. Not to say as if it will all be resolved tomorrow, but I’m sure the more momentum and pressure is put on these corrupt justice systems to do right the thing, the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    How many white people ever admit, acknowledge or in any way accept responsibility for being Racist? How many people of any background, from any country, openly admit that they are racist?

    Go ahead, admit you're a racist

    Admit You Are Racist? Three Reasons Why This Is a Good Idea


    Why we need to call out casual racism


    Racism: Why are white people so defensive?

    Trump will dog whistle, but he won't risk standing at the podium and admitting to it. Either because he doesn't accept it as a fault of his, he thinks he's perfect after all, or because he knows how the public will react.
    It was also pointed out to me that China has been racist towards black people and Muslim people in spite of Chinese people having suffered under aspects such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and Fu Manchu, and that them admitting they’re having racist-based views towards apprehending what they believe are degenerates makes me feel that they don’t care how many call them racist, but care more that they feel they’re doing the right thing from their point of view. Which is quite scary, as yes, they surely don’t see themselves as the villain.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 05-28-2020 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #1742
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    You’re either a bystander or an activist at the end of the day, and in any case, and I’ve thought this before, but I hope what happened with George Floyd serves as further pressure and motivation for all the justice systems to reorganize themselves with less corruption and more responsibility, working with with activists or whatever it takes to do so. Not to say as if it will all be resolved tomorrow, but I’m sure the more momentum and pressure is put on these corrupt justice systems to do right the thing, the better.
    Sadly too many people are comfortable being bystanders. I have a criminal record. I have been to prison. I know first hand the problems that are in the legal system in dealing with inmates and felons who have been released. I cant say I know this from an African American perceptive because I am white. But I was treated badly so I cant imagine what it is like for some of them. I admit I am in an odd position because I believe in being tough on crime. But the way we are going about it now, the way inmates are treated, it is not the way to do it. I decided to start doing something about it. I am working with two groups for change. I was told by many of the people I was in prison with, and many who were in prison themselves that I am wasting my time and to just give up. Yet they always bitch about how they were treated and how others are being treated now. But they wont do anything to try and change it. That is how America is at this point. Very few people do much.
    Republicans bitch about how Trump is killing the party yet they vote for people who support him. My unlce hates Trump yet said he will vote for Mitch in Kentucky. I am like WHAT! How can you not support one but support the other?
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  3. #1743
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I decided to start doing something about it. I am working with two groups for change. I was told by many of the people I was in prison with, and many who were in prison themselves that I am wasting my time and to just give up. Yet they always bitch about how they were treated and how others are being treated now. But they wont do anything to try and change it. That is how America is at this point. Very few people do much.
    Good for you! I think you’re the first person I’ve seen on these forums complaining about racist-based police brutality and other forums of corruption actively work with groups in an attempt to bring about some impactful positive change, as opposed to just simply complaining about it on a small, dark corner of the internet and not really try to change anything beyond that, like you touched on.

    This certainly isn’t to say people aren’t allowed to complain about racism and other forms of corruption on the internet, but that doesn’t seem like it’s enough at this point, so good for you in going beyond being a bystander to someone actively working with groups for change!

  4. #1744
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I didn't say "money" -- I said "funding" and "aid" which is about a lot more than just money.

    None of which addresses how Republicans repeatedly cutting or attempting to cut the education budget helps the education system regardless.

    Just like curbing police violence against "minorities" is about more than just claiming you don't support it while supporting Republican candidates who vote against and "roll back" police oversight.

    I don't want to "debate" you (again) on this Mets -- you've already repeatedly shown a lack of empathy and concern for facts when addressing these issues and proven to me at least why it's useless to discuss these issues and expect anything worthwhile to come out of it.

    Save the talking points for someone who hasn't heard it all before and hasn't dealt with the reality of Republican racism and bigotry directly.

    As stated before, regardess of your attempts at deflection there's a blatantly obvious reason why most black people don't support your party.
    When I'm accused of a lack of empathy, it tends to be because I'm considering the numbers and the facts.

    There is something revealing about accusing someone of a lack of empathy while going after them personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Only Republicans and many on the Left despise her, they never gave her a chance - GOP propaganda saw to that, rather than facts. Trump got lucky and had to rely on things most Republicans don't to manage that win, and he still beat her in popularity. There's vastly more reasons to respect Hillary than Thatcher.

    Everyone loves Princess Diana and she had a higher profile than Robinson. Robinson didn't have to be well known to be emulated, the point is to look for people who have ideologies nearer to her own then Thatcher's and that wasn't impossible to accomplish, even in 1992. It makes more sense for someone like Robinson, as obscure as she is, than Thatcher - who's against everything Omar ideologically represents. This is about ideology, not how famous a politician is.
    When you say "only Republicans and many on the Left despise her" that is a big chunk of the population. It's a strong majority of the voters, and probably an incomplete list of her critics (she didn't do great with the center.)

    One can think Robinson is worth emulating, but that it's not worth mentioning it to an American audience because they won't understand the reference. The argument is that Thatcher is worth mentioning for Omar because she was effective. I would suspect it's difficult to expect a liberal to name someone successful who they are ideologically simpatico with, especially for someone like Ilhan Omar who would probably consider most mainstream left-wing politicians to have compromised too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Has politics become so totally divided that we can’t see good qualities in people on the “other side”?

    I voted for Labour throughout the Thatcher years...but I can still see things about her that any aspiring politician might usefully emulate. She wasn’t a bull shit merchant...she set out exactly what she was going to do, and got it done.

    I would love to see today somebody on the left with her qualities...the desire to get things done, the honesty to set out aims, and the pragmatic ability to actually achieve real change.

    On a personal level...practically everybody that writes about her agrees she was always courteous and thoughtful in the way she treated “ordinary people” (hate that phrase!).

    That is always worth mentioning I think because acquaintances who have worked for high ranking Labour politicians have been very poorly treated.
    I don't know if this is a matter of politics becoming divided. It has always been divided, especially when it comes to Maggie Thatcher. My understanding of British politics is that many on the left really passionately hated her. As the Costello song shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    That makes me wonder why Trump bothers denying the obvious, even if he doesn't believe it's obvious? To quote his favorite catchphrase, what does he have to lose by coming out and publicly admitting he's a racist? People who already hate Trump will be justified in their loathing of him, people who love him will applaud the guy for flying his bigot flag. Meanwhile, Republicans will continue looking the other way while slurping rich sugar daddies like the Kochs and stacking the courts with right wingers. In other words, nothing will change.
    He probably doesn't think he's racist. Recognizing it requires a level of self-awareness, as well as an understanding of the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    How many white people ever admit, acknowledge or in any way accept responsibility for being Racist? How many people of any background, from any country, openly admit that they are racist?

    Go ahead, admit you're a racist

    Admit You Are Racist? Three Reasons Why This Is a Good Idea


    Why we need to call out casual racism


    Racism: Why are white people so defensive?

    Trump will dog whistle, but he won't risk standing at the podium and admitting to it. Either because he doesn't accept it as a fault of his, he thinks he's perfect after all, or because he knows how the public will react.
    It's probably fair to say that Donald Trump does not have the same definition of racist as a white progressive person who would apologize for their racism at a professional development event about overcoming implicit bias.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #1745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    When I'm accused of a lack of empathy, it tends to be because I'm considering the numbers and the facts.

    There is something revealing about accusing someone of a lack of empathy while going after them personally.
    You generally only really "consider" the facts that you deem worthy of consideration -- such as when I tell you about how racist police have harassed me many times personally or how Republicans routinely suppress African-American votes and you respond by claiming in so many words that's not your problem and instead ask for "policy" suggestions that your Republican compatriots will not only never enact, but have already blocked and rolled back when proposed by the Democrats.

    It's nothing "personal" Mets -- I've tried to engage you repeatedly on the basis of facts alone and you've routinely dodged or ignored them.

    We don't all have the dubious privilege of being able to ignore when "minorities" are being systemically oppressed -- and even killed -- due to a lack of concern from Republicans for the poor and people of color, epecially when many of said Republicans are the individuals who are promoting and legislating and benefitting from the policies that enable this kind of oppression, bigotry and abuse.



    You can keep trying to call that "personal" all you want -- so long as you remember that it's your party that made it personal with it's overt racism and bigotry towards individuals like myself and many others on this forum -- Trump is only a symptom, not the cause, and you know this.

    You didn't even bother to address the facts provided -- including video evidence -- regarding Republicans cutting the education budget.

    Not that I expect you (or your party) to do so in an objective manner regardless -- that's not based on bias but "personal" experience.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-28-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  6. #1746
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    It was also pointed out to me that China has been racist towards black people and Muslim people in spite of Chinese people having suffered under aspects such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and Fu Manchu, and that them admitting they’re having racist-based views towards apprehending what they believe are degenerates makes me feel that they don’t care how many call them racist, but care more that they feel they’re doing the right thing from their point of view. Which is quite scary, as yes, they surely don’t see themselves as the villain.
    There's a bit of projection going on here, no? While racism certainly exists in China it is nowhere near as vicious or universal as it is in the West. The critical distinction is that racism isn't foundational to society there like it is here, if you eliminate racism from Chinese culture it would still look more or less the same, the days when they could fancy themselves this celestial kingdom looking down on the barbaric hordes from on high are long in the past now. On the other hand, if you were to envision an America without racism, it would be completely unrecognizable.

  7. #1747
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    When I'm accused of a lack of empathy, it tends to be because I'm considering the numbers and the facts.

    There is something revealing about accusing someone of a lack of empathy while going after them personally.

    When you say "only Republicans and many on the Left despise her" that is a big chunk of the population. It's a strong majority of the voters, and probably an incomplete list of her critics (she didn't do great with the center.)

    One can think Robinson is worth emulating, but that it's not worth mentioning it to an American audience because they won't understand the reference. The argument is that Thatcher is worth mentioning for Omar because she was effective. I would suspect it's difficult to expect a liberal to name someone successful who they are ideologically simpatico with, especially for someone like Ilhan Omar who would probably consider most mainstream left-wing politicians to have compromised too much.

    I don't know if this is a matter of politics becoming divided. It has always been divided, especially when it comes to Maggie Thatcher. My understanding of British politics is that many on the left really passionately hated her. As the Costello song shows.

    He probably doesn't think he's racist. Recognizing it requires a level of self-awareness, as well as an understanding of the context.

    It's probably fair to say that Donald Trump does not have the same definition of racist as a white progressive person who would apologize for their racism at a professional development event about overcoming implicit bias.
    Trump probably thinks that there is only one race, White. Which makes him not racist since he can't be possibly be racist against White people. Anyone who isn't White, he probably doesn't see them as People, so they don't count.
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  8. #1748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    You’re either a bystander or an activist at the end of the day, and in any case, and I’ve thought this before, but I hope what happened with George Floyd serves as further pressure and motivation for all the justice systems to reorganize themselves with less corruption and more responsibility, working with with activists or whatever it takes to do so. Not to say as if it will all be resolved tomorrow, but I’m sure the more momentum and pressure is put on these corrupt justice systems to do right the thing, the better.
    Obama already made the effort to do so while he was in office.

    Republicans obstructed or attempted to roll back all of his changes.

    You're operating under the assumption that Republicans see this as a problem rather than a benefit.

    It's a reasonable assumption but one that doesn't hold up under scrutiny given their repeated obstruction of any real police reform.

    And like I told Mets before -- if people can't get justice through democracy, they will seek it through other means.

    -----
    "In the wake of two black men killed in officer-involved shootings, President Obama reminded the nation in a Thursday night speech that his White House has already taken steps to help improve relations between police and communities.

    “Last year, we put together a task force that was comprised of civil rights activists and community leaders, but also law enforcement officials — police captains, sheriffs,” the President said. “And they came up with specific recommendations and steps that could ensure that the trust between communities and police departments were rebuilt and incidents like this would be less likely to occur.”

    That group, the White House Task Force on 21st Century Policing, was created in the wake of a spate of officer-involved killings of black men in 2014, and a year later it released a lengthy report calling for more data on police-involved shootings, better assessments of community attitudes toward police, and the removal of incentives on police practices like arrests and convictions. But while the task force’s recommendations have indeed been embraced by some of the nation’s law enforcement, its effects have been noticeably limited.

    According to a one-year update by the Task Force, at least nine states and municipalities have taken significant steps to implement their recommendations and law enforcement agencies in every state have in some way grappled with reform. In May 2016, 15 police departments signed on to join the “Advancing 21st Century Policing Initiative.” However, those successes are a drop in the bucket for the task force considering there are 18,000 police departments in the United States.

    Even President Obama mentioned his frustration with the slow pace of change even as he praised the task force’s suggested reforms. “Change has been too slow and we have to have a greater sense of urgency about this,” the President said Thursday."

    https://time.com/4398392/obama-polic...tury-policing/

    -----
    "Before he is ousted, Sessions limits U.S. oversight of local police"

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Department of Justice has moved to sharply curtail federal authority aimed at curtailing abuse and civil rights violations at local police departments across the country by directing U.S. attorneys to limit the use of consent decrees and settlement agreements.

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions, in one of his final acts before President Donald Trump ousted him, said the Justice Department could investigate alleged legal violations but that “special caution” was required before resolving any disputes with states or local entities, the department said late Thursday.

    Sessions has long opposed consent decrees between the Justice Department and police departments in cities such as Chicago and Baltimore to institute reforms, which were heavily utilized in the Obama administration, and sought to delay or overturn them.

    Sessions had ordered a sweeping review of the decrees nationwide, alarming civil rights advocates who saw them as ways to address alleged unlawful police stops, excessive force and other violations, especially toward blacks and other minorities."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1NE1NL
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 05-28-2020 at 01:42 PM.

  9. #1749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    You’re either a bystander or an activist at the end of the day, and in any case, and I’ve thought this before, but I hope what happened with George Floyd serves as further pressure and motivation for all the justice systems to reorganize themselves with less corruption and more responsibility, working with with activists or whatever it takes to do so. Not to say as if it will all be resolved tomorrow, but I’m sure the more momentum and pressure is put on these corrupt justice systems to do right the thing, the better.
    A virulently racist president and senate have appointed nearly 200 judges to the court system, and there are...what, 25-50 pending? All while this same group blocked nominations from someone not a racist for years. I wouldn't look for the justice system to feel pressure any time soon.

  10. #1750
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There are many, many female politicians in politics all over the world who don't have Thatcher's track record. For example, Mary Robinson, Prime Minister of Ireland in 1990. You don't even have to look for politicians, there was Princess Diana.
    Firstly, I've never heard of Mary Robinson, and I wouldn't call myself uninformed of politics. Secondly... and I hate saying bad things of the dead but... ughhh, is Princess Diana someone to hold up as a great person? Really? Not in my book. I'll leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Personally I think both Barack and her were streets ahead of the Donald.
    True but... that's not much of an accomplishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    If the equivalent of a young Thatcher was in charge of Uk now, we would have seen far fewer corona virus deaths...she would have acted more quickly, more decisively, more intelligently.
    100% agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Has politics become so totally divided that we can’t see good qualities in people on the “other side”?
    Sadly... yes. And it's very depressing. It shows a lack of objectivity (across the board). The idea one side never says right things and the other side never puts a foot wrong, it's... it's SO STUPID! It's a lack of critical thinking, nothing more. All it does is spread hate. It's football mentality, your team and everyone else sucks. It's dumb jock mentality, and I loath it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I voted for Labour throughout the Thatcher years...but I can still see things about her that any aspiring politician might usefully emulate. She wasn’t a bull shit merchant...she set out exactly what she was going to do, and got it done.
    I would love to see today somebody on the left with her qualities...the desire to get things done, the honesty to set out aims, and the pragmatic ability to actually achieve real change.
    On a personal level...practically everybody that writes about her agrees she was always courteous and thoughtful in the way she treated “ordinary people” (hate that phrase!).
    That is always worth mentioning I think because acquaintances who have worked for high ranking Labour politicians have been very poorly treated.
    All excellent points.
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  11. #1751
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Trump probably thinks that there is only one race, White. Which makes him not racist since he can't be possibly be racist against White people. Anyone who isn't White, he probably doesn't see them as People, so they don't count.
    TBH, Trump seems ready to dismiss/go against anyone who isn’t ready to side with him, not just black people, but also gay people, disabled people, even white people who are gay and/or disabled. He probably doesn’t seem any of the poor or anyone in a different political party as people either. Money, power, popularity, and such are what make the world go around in his own little twisted mind, and anyone who doesn’t fit his agenda on that gets cut loose and left behind by him.

  12. #1752
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    TBH, Trump seems ready to dismiss/go against anyone who isn’t ready to side with him, not just black people, but also gay people, disabled people, even white people who are gay and/or disabled. He probably doesn’t seem any of the poor or anyone in a different political party as people either. Money, power, popularity, and such are what make the world go around in his own little twisted mind, and anyone who doesn’t fit his agenda on that gets cut loose and left behind by him.
    True, but you can see an escalation in his language when dealing with critics who are women or of color. He uses terms that never come up when the critic is white and Male. Although he does seem to reserve special hate if that critic is a Republican. It fits his wannabe mob boss mentality.
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  13. #1753
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Trump said he would shut down Twitter, if he could: “If it were legal, if it could be legally shut down, I would do it.” But Trump also told reporters he's not deleting his account.
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    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    There's a bit of projection going on here, no? While racism certainly exists in China it is nowhere near as vicious or universal as it is in the West. The critical distinction is that racism isn't foundational to society there like it is here, if you eliminate racism from Chinese culture it would still look more or less the same, the days when they could fancy themselves this celestial kingdom looking down on the barbaric hordes from on high are long in the past now. On the other hand, if you were to envision an America without racism, it would be completely unrecognizable.
    If you do a quick google on Chinese repression of minority groups you might not be so confident that Chinese racism is less harmful than that practiced elsewhere.

    For instance, estimates for deaths caused in Nepal by Chinese government action since Nepal was taken over, vary between half a million to just over a million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Its been apparent for years that Zuck is a shill for anyone that could hurt his bottom line.
    Zuckerberg is a product of his times - the neo-liberal economic fantasy of trickle-down economics and individualism writ large. He was indoctrinated by the almighty dollar.

    Also, praising Thatcher for a couple of nice things is like praising Churchill for leading the UK during the Second World War: sure, he got them through, but he was a really fucking awful person. See: India.

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