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  1. #12571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. Republicans are big on "government is the problem not the solution" per Reagan. That kind of mentality isn't there in Asia where conservatives don't believe that Big Government is such a bad thing.

    Right wingers in India fund soup kitchens, have government supported hospitals and trade unions, and so on. So while corporate malfeasance and Multi National Corporations f--king up the poor happens a lot, nobody argues for the deregulatory fundamentalism that the Republicans are big on.

    Singapore, whose former dictator Lee Kuan-Yew was a favorite of Xi Jinping, Kissinger, Deng Xiaoping, Putin, and so on, also believed that government has a duty to provide services and public care.

    Rodrigo Duterte the crazy strongman of Philippines does have a more active social policy than Trump.

    Japan led by a very right wing government under Shinzo Abe, grandson of a war criminal, also supports state funded policies to help the poor and suffering (though pursuing a very belligerent policy across Asia, and also promoting a national agenda that lies and downplays Japanese war crimes).

    That's the conservative governments I am talking about.


    We can't forget one of three major democracies in the world with a left-wing popular Social Democrat party in power is in Asia. Taiwan shares that with New Zealand and Canada, and Tsai Ing-Wen is a progressive left-wing President, first female President in her nation's history, and supremely popular (as is Jacinda Adearn) and handled the coronavirus like a champ. All that talk by Trump about banning China, well the Prez of Taiwan did that despite not banning any Chinese visitors to her island.
    How are those countries on gay marriage, interracial marriage, and abortion?

  2. #12572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I prefer to compare him to a new mutant strain of cockroach
    I would call him Dung Beetle Don but that is an insult to a magnificent creature that keeps Africa from drowning in feces.

    Maybe Lil' Ding Dong Dung Don? That hits him everywhere. Sounds a bit racist to me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Don't let right wing radio and FOX News continue to make "liberal" a dirty word. If you're for the Affordable Care Act, and you're pro-choice, and you don't have a problem with gay marriage and you believe that Black Lives Matter without any qualifiers, then you're a liberal. Don't be ashamed of it.
    Except those are centrist tennats.

    And that is the fundamental problem in America.

    Our right is so far right that the center looks liberal to them.

    When you need a telescope to see the middle ...
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  3. #12573
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    This is the pussyfoot Democrat garbage that's got us where we are today. No offense. Sometimes you have to be a little radical. Especially when you're playing a game against an opponent that cheats at every turn they get.

    Michelle Obama's "high road" mentality is great in ethics class, but it doesn't get you anywhere in the real world of modern day Republicans.

    Look at the Supreme Court.
    Radical works when there are no other alternatives. As you said, 'sometimes'. However, Most Times you can get as much achieved, if not more so, by working within the political structure.

    Radical ideas can be good, Social Security and Medicare were Radical ideas for their time, and now they are ingrained in society. The ACA was a radical idea back when it became law. There are so many things that, at the time, can be considered radical ideas. But mostly because they improved society.

    Then there are less radical ideas that work as well. And a few that came from Republicans, like the creation of the EPA.

    The thing is, if you have an idea you can support it, you can advocate for it, but you also need to be flexible, open minded, and patient.

    The radical part I'm uncomfortable with is the 'all or nothing' kind. The 'My way or the Highway' kind. The kind that says if we can't have it our way then no one can have anything.

    I'm not saying that this is you or anyone specific, only that this is the vibe I have been getting for the past 4 years. I was never a 'Follower'. Like Chou I prefer to think for myself, make my own choices, agree with what I think deserves to be agreed with and disagree, challenge, or offer alternatives to what I think needs to be changed.

    I chose to be a Democrat because I have more freedom to be who I want to be as one. Because I'm not pressured to think in a certain way, or speak in a certain way, or act in a certain way. I never was a creature of peer pressure, that never worked on me. Even in regards to voting.

    When being a 'Progressive' start to feel less like an exclusive college fraternity/sorority and more like a rational expression of moving the country forward, of moving human society forward in positive ways that work for everyone, I might reconsider.
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  4. #12574
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    How are those countries on gay marriage, interracial marriage, and abortion?
    The Dems weren't for gay marriage until late in the Obama administration you know. Biden went on record for that before Barack.

    What I mean is that in Asia, even liberals and left types aren't consistently in favor of those issues. And for that matter in Europe, the Greek Communist Party is actively homophobic even today.

    In India, abortion is legal and allowed but it has a dodgy issue owing to female infanticide where traditional Indian families who believe the firstborn has to be a son will often abort the kid if a sonogram reveals it to be a female. In India, using sonograms to find out the gender of a fetus is illegal and banned for that reason (though of course I am sure that there are docs under the table who do that sort of thing). India's supreme court has legalized gay marriage but the Indian government and Indian society are slow to enforce it.

    As for interracial marriage, or intercaste marriage and so on. My understanding is that it's legal but society frows on say intercaste or inter-religious marriages.

    In Japan for instance, it has a liberal constitution but society frowns on immigrants or Japanese of Korean ancestry or mixed ancestry. The recent US Open winner Naomi Osaka is part Japanese and part Haitian black, she's not as popular in Japan as she is in America.

  5. #12575
    Incredible Member Castle's Avatar
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    All the polls say Biden is leading but we know Polls means nothing. I don't think anyone would be surprised if Trump wins again.

  6. #12576
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    All the polls say Biden is leading but we know Polls means nothing. I don't think anyone would be surprised if Trump wins again.
    We should be. He will lose the popular vote by a wider margin. It would only be by GOP cheating (again) that he will pick up the few States he needs for an EC win.

    This is not saying something could happen in this crazy year that changes the race. After all it was McConnell and Ryan forcing Comey to make a statement about an inconsequential laptop (against all Government protocals) that swung a few States to Trump last time.
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  7. #12577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Dems weren't for gay marriage until late in the Obama administration you know. Biden went on record for that before Barack.

    What I mean is that in Asia, even liberals and left types aren't consistently in favor of those issues. And for that matter in Europe, the Greek Communist Party is actively homophobic even today.

    In India, abortion is legal and allowed but it has a dodgy issue owing to female infanticide where traditional Indian families who believe the firstborn has to be a son will often abort the kid if a sonogram reveals it to be a female. In India, using sonograms to find out the gender of a fetus is illegal and banned for that reason (though of course I am sure that there are docs under the table who do that sort of thing). India's supreme court has legalized gay marriage but the Indian government and Indian society are slow to enforce it.

    As for interracial marriage, or intercaste marriage and so on. My understanding is that it's legal but society frows on say intercaste or inter-religious marriages.

    In Japan for instance, it has a liberal constitution but society frowns on immigrants or Japanese of Korean ancestry or mixed ancestry. The recent US Open winner Naomi Osaka is part Japanese and part Haitian black, she's not as popular in Japan as she is in America.
    Maybe I am just some kind of mutant neolib but to me, liberal means not being for banning behavior that doesn't hurt anyone just because you find it "icky". That means both legally and socially. After all just not making it illegal doesn't mean you are safe to walk the street or free to eat at a diner.

    Also you didn't take into account that America being highly individualist means most people don't want the government making choices for them. From what i've seen, cons are more against it than the libs right now because gay marriage and abortion would be a state to state issue if not for federal oversight. It's also easier for Asians in particular to be for big government when they live in mostly homogeneous nations where all the power is held by their ethnicity. For example, good deal of the right wing nuts I see online complain about taxes because they believe their tax money goes to people that don't look like them.
    Last edited by Farealmer; 10-12-2020 at 12:11 PM.

  8. #12578
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    We should be. He will lose the popular vote by a wider margin. It would only be by GOP cheating (again) that he will pick up the few States he needs for an EC win.

    This is not saying something could happen in this crazy year that changes the race. After all it was McConnell and Ryan forcing Comey to make a statement about an inconsequential laptop (against all Government protocals) that swung a few States to Trump last time.
    The thing about that laptop was though it was a culimination of a years long anti-Hilary campaign. There was the Benghazi hearings (a total nothingburger whose main purpose was to smear Hilary), it was the WikiLeaks emails, there was that bit where Hilary fainted in public and her campaign lied about it, and then heading into the final week, you had Comey.

    They try doing that with Biden but it's been a total s--tshow of a smear campaign, one failure to smear after another. There's the entire Hunter Biden Burisma non-starter that got botched when Trump tried to get Ukraine to do it, and that led to his Impeachment (with Romney becoming the first to impeach a POTUS of his own party when he voted on one of the charges). The stupidity of that is staggering...all Trump had to do was raise the issue of Hunter Biden being on the board, which was public knowledge and make that an issue because that itself appears a little dodgy on the face of it...but Trump decided to go Witch Hunt and totally shot that issue out of the table. Even if Republicans manufacture some kind of fake surprise it won't work because the government has lot all credibility. No one will believe Bill Barr if he raises an issue about emails now. Nobody will believe a word out of this administration that lied about a virus that murdered 214,000 people (higher than American lives lost in 5 of the 7 major wars combined).

    It helps that Joe Biden is a fair bit teflon himself.

  9. #12579
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Maybe I am just some kind of mutant neolib but to me, liberal means not being for banning behavior that doesn't hurt anyone just because you find it "icky". That means both legally and socially. After all just not making it illegal doesn't mean you are safe to walk the street or free to eat at a diner.
    That's a social liberal or libertarian position. Conservatism is defined by its attitude to economics, society, and form of government, and that changes from place to place, but in general the deregulatory agenda that you have in USA, UK, parts of North EU isn't a big thing even among the right wing in the Global South.

    Also you didn't take into account that America being highly individualist means most people don't want the government making choices for them.
    That sounds like American exceptionalism to me. This idea that Americans are inherently libertarian is a fantasy and myth. I mean Americans do have a culture of self-reliance, that's true enough but I don't think that's inherently hostile to the government. The reality is closer to, in Bernie Sanders' words, "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor".

    It's also easier for Asians in particular to be for big government when they live in mostly homogeneous nations where all the power is held by their ethnicity.
    Edward Said's ghost is shaking his head somewhere on hearing this Orientalist nonsense. Asian societies and cultures are far less homogenous than USA is any given day. It's far more diverse and disparate, with multiple ethnicities and regional identities and differen traditions. China alone is a bafflingly complex society where the CCP has tried to impose a homogeneity from top down but which, propaganda notwithstanding, doesn't seem to work in practice. Japan is also a complex region, as is South Korea. India is probably the most complex and heterogeneous and diverse nation in this planet where each state has its own language, dialect, religious tradition, and it's 1 billion strong where every citizen speaks more than one language.

    In such diverse societies, big government plays a role in providing some common link and bridge.

    For example, good deal of the right wing nuts I see online only complain about taxes because they believe their tax money goes to people that don't look like them.
    Right wing nuts complain because they are greedy selfish people, not because they have any actual ideology. To the extent they have an ideology, there's a small number of them. And it grows smaller by the day.

  10. #12580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    All the polls say Biden is leading but we know Polls means nothing. I don't think anyone would be surprised if Trump wins again.
    We'll see. This go around Trump is not an unknown quantity to the undecided, thats the biggest difference from 2016. And the Supreme Court stuff seems like it will be settled, so that eliminates the single issue voters who just want a conservative court.

    By my reckoning Trump should be so stomped that even the Mole Man won't be able to find him.
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  11. #12581
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    That sounds like American exceptionalism to me. This idea that Americans are inherently libertarian is a fantasy and myth. I mean Americans do have a culture of self-reliance, that's true enough but I don't think that's inherently hostile to the government. The reality is closer to, in Bernie Sanders' words, "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor".
    You don't need to be hostile to the government to not want it making choices for you.

    Edward Said's ghost is shaking his head somewhere on hearing this Orientalist nonsense. Asian societies and cultures are far less homogenous than USA is any given day. It's far more diverse and disparate, with multiple ethnicities and regional identities and differen traditions. China alone is a bafflingly complex society where the CCP has tried to impose a homogeneity from top down but which, propaganda notwithstanding, doesn't seem to work in practice. Japan is also a complex region, as is South Korea. India is probably the most complex and heterogeneous and diverse nation in this planet where each state has its own language, dialect, religious tradition, and it's 1 billion strong where every citizen speaks more than one language.
    Then explain Naomi Osaka. There is diverse and then there is "diverse". I don't mean to trivialize Asian subcultures but I wasn't talking about them when i said homogeneous. It wasn't the context of what I was replying to either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Right wing nuts complain because they are greedy selfish people, not because they have any actual ideology. To the extent they have an ideology, there's a small number of them. And it grows smaller by the day.
    Is there any real reason to believe that?

  12. #12582
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    We'll see. This go around Trump is not an unknown quantity to the undecided, thats the biggest difference from 2016. And the Supreme Court stuff seems like it will be settled, so that eliminates the single issue voters who just want a conservative court.

    By my reckoning Trump should be so stomped that even the Mole Man won't be able to find him.
    As I said before, here's one thing that's guaranteed to not happen this election. No ifs, no buts, no ands. Trump's not gonna win by a landslide, he's not gonna win by a substantial majority. That ain't gonna happen. If Trump were to win, it would be a very close, very narrow victory...assuming the election result is fair, i.e. electorally or popularly. There's no scenario in this election that will present that outcome. That much is guaranteed.

    It is extremely unlikely that Trump will win the popular vote. Theoretically it is possible but it is extremely unlikely, supremely unlikely.

    So with that dead certainty (not gonna win by any real majority) and strong unlikelihood (not gonna win the popular vote), the only outcomes to expect are victory by legal chicanery, or by illegal and corrupt means. And we see that reflected in his campaign and his administration's actions. Electoral victory is possible but even that is doubtful now.

    It is very difficult to go into a campaign and aim to win by such a narrow expected margin. Presidential campaigns whether it's Bush, Romney, McCain aim to win the popular vote and get a wide chunk of the demographic. Trump has narrowed the road to victory considerably. It's like making a jumpshot with a minute left from a huge distance away from the net. The Michael Jordans of the world have a chance to do it, however the Michael Jordans of politics would ensure that their campaigns never get to such a state that they have to do it.

    Trump has also run a very pessimistic campaign, that dude doesn't smile at all and is completely miserable and that misery is there in the faces of his surrogates and henchmen, and ultimately a Prez candidate has to convey an optimism. Trump's administration has no substantial achievement or policy measure to boast of, nothing that ordinary Americans across the spectrum can acknowledge. His administration has no credibility. So he has put himself in a corner and has no real way to get himself out of it.

    So all things considered, I do expect Biden to win. At the same time, I won't really feel safe until I see Biden take the oath on Inaugration Day. The only way Biden can lose is if he contracts covid before election. That's the only thing that might change things...and even then, quite obviously they can make the case that Trump gave Biden Covid. In either case, I would prefer if Biden takes double care of himself, and continue his general "Rope a Dope" attritition campaign where he's basically allowed Trump to make the mistakes while standing by the side.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 10-12-2020 at 12:47 PM.

  13. #12583
    Astonishing Member Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Radical works when there are no other alternatives. As you said, 'sometimes'. However, Most Times you can get as much achieved, if not more so, by working within the political structure.
    How's that working out these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Radical ideas can be good, Social Security and Medicare were Radical ideas for their time, and now they are ingrained in society. The ACA was a radical idea back when it became law. There are so many things that, at the time, can be considered radical ideas. But mostly because they improved society.
    What? They're trying every day to rip the ACA away from Americans in the middle of a Pandemic that's as bad as it is because they failed in every way to form an appropriate response to it. In fact, Kushner is ON RECORD saying that they didn't, because it seemed to be a Blue State problem, and thus was politically beneficial to them to do nothing.

    Come the fuck on.

    At this point, being liberal, or progressive is just trying to hold the line of human decency. If that's "too radical" for you, well, good luck out there, because I don't know what to say.
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  14. #12584
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    How's that working out these days?



    What? They're trying every day to rip the ACA away from Americans in the middle of a Pandemic that's as bad as it is because they failed in every way to form an appropriate response to it. In fact, Kushner is ON RECORD saying that they didn't, because it seemed to be a Blue State problem, and thus was politically beneficial to them to do nothing.

    Come the fuck on.

    At this point, being liberal, or progressive is just trying to hold the line of human decency. If that's "too radical" for you, well, good luck out there, because I don't know what to say.
    Trying is not succeeding. There is too much push back on many fronts for anything that most people have come to depend on to be simply tossed out.

    And it works just fine, when Republicans aren't in office.

    You're last sentence confuses me. There isn't anything, any policy, program, law, or action proposed by Democrats in Office that I would be against or would consider to be too radical or at the very least worth the effort to look at closely and consider seriously. I figure most Democrats feel the same way.

    The point is, if you are in Government, if you are a legislator or a government leader, and you have an idea for solving a problem, you put the idea out and see if it sticks. Then you work on it until it does stick.

    There are different types of radical. There are radical new breakthroughs in science and medicine, radical new approaches to a problem, thinking outside of the box, those are all good things if they work and if they succeed in doing what needs to be done.

    Then there is radical as in, tear it down. Chaotic Radical, radical that solves nothing or that might solve something but comes with a heavy price.

    Radical innovation is great, its what we should always consider when trying to solve a problem.

    Radical as in unnecessarily extreme, as in chaotic, as in not being the best solution and possibly just making things worse, that is not a good thing.

    Which type of Radical are you thinking of?
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  15. #12585
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Wife of Pennsylvania’s Lieutenant Governor Is Target of Racial Slur

    Gisele Barreto Fetterman, the wife of Pennsylvania’s lieutenant governor, went to the grocery store on Sunday to pick up some golden kiwis.

    It was a last-minute dash, so she headed to a local Aldi store without the state troopers who usually protect her. Three boxes of kiwis in hand, Ms. Fetterman was standing in line to pay when a woman stopped and stared at her.

    “‘Oh, there is that N-word that Fetterman married,’” Ms. Fetterman recalled the woman saying to her, emphasizing in a phone interview on Monday that the woman used the racial slur without abbreviating it. Ms. Fetterman is the wife of Lt. Gov. John Fetterman, a Democrat.

    Ms. Fetterman, who shared an account of the encounter in a tweet on Sunday night, said she froze. The woman kept repeating, “You don’t belong here,” before walking away, she said.
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