All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[numberthirty]

One side: "We are appalled, and do not support him as a candidate. If we can stop him in other ways that aren't cutting donations or not voting, we will."
Other side: "We don't see what the problem is, and resent that anyone would criticize one of us for being awful. We will double down and give him more money and vote for him in lockstep."
Folks here observing the above: "bOtH pArTiEs aRe tHe sAmE".


GTFO with this narrative, because anyone who believes it is a disingenuous partisan gaslighter.

If you are still trying to justify making that call when we are talking about a pretty credibly accused rapist that no one really called out when he tried to sue a news outfit for defamation?

You're just a different shade of green.

You can believe that you have reasons that justify you being that(and how it makes you different...), but the reality is that you're just a different shade of green.

[4saken1]

If you think this is just me finding a few examples of Democrats falling short of their standards, and that it's not indicative of anything, is there any example in which the Democratic party was willing to take an electoral hit because of a higher principle?

Katherine Lauren Hill

[worstblogever]

If you are still trying to justify making that call when we are talking about a pretty credibly accused rapist that no one really called out when he tried to sue a news outfit for defamation?

You're just a different shade of green.

Hey? Before you start throwing stones?

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...ay-2020-Update

The sitting Lieutenant Governor of Virginia is Justin Fairfax, who was elected in the 2017 Blue Wave election there, beating Republican Jill Vogel with 53% of the vote. Simply put, Fairfax has been accused by two separate women of sexual assault, one alleged assault in 2000 and another in 2004. He insists that any encounters with the women were consensual, and has refused calls to resign from his office from the Virginia Democratic Party. Fairfax seems determined to not just not resign, but has designs on higher office, planning a run for Governor of Virginia in 2021 that we hope he does not win in the primary for.

Or y'know, the people in office like Tim Kaine or practically ever member of the Democratic state legislature who called on him to resign."


But I guess you just enjoy Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts".

[numberthirty]

What I see there(honestly, I'm guessing because the links didn't play ball...) is that some folks called on him to resign from the office that he was holding..

And then just dropped it.

I pretty clearly asked for examples of folks who have said that there is no place for this guy in their party since he announced that he will be seeking an even higher office as a member of that party.

Which I still have yet to see.

[numberthirty]

Past that, the idea that political concern is ahead of actually doing what is right is right there in the post...

One side: "We are appalled, and do not support him as a candidate. If we can stop him in other ways that aren't cutting donations or not voting, we will."
Other side: "We don't see what the problem is, and resent that anyone would criticize one of us for being awful. We will double down and give him more money and vote for him in lockstep."
Folks here observing the above: "bOtH pArTiEs aRe tHe sAmE".


GTFO with this narrative, because anyone who believes it is a disingenuous partisan gaslighter.

Maybe that isn't what was actually intended. Willing to allow for that.

That said?

If you are putting a political calculation in front of actually just doing the right thing?

You're just another shade of green. No matter what the reasons are that you believe justify putting political calculation in front of doing the right thing.

[JackDaw]

Past that, the idea that political concern is ahead of actually doing what is right is right there in the post...



Maybe that isn't what was actually intended. Willing to allow for that.

That said?

If you are putting a political calculation in front of actually just doing the right thing?

You're just another shade of green. No matter what the reasons are that you believe justify putting political calculation in front of doing the right thing.

The justification is that by doing a small wrong thing now that is politically expedient you retain (or gain) office and may be thus able to do more important right things in the future.

It’s a complex world...that might be the right thing to do.

In the long term there’s no point in politics in just sitting on the sidelines out of office saying all the right things but actually watching other people make all the decisions.

At some point..as a voter..waiting for a party full of saints that take all the right stances on every issue...you have to look at the main parties that are capable of wielding power and vote for the one that’s the best available.

[numberthirty]

The justification is that by doing a small wrong thing now that is politically expedient you retain (or gain) office and may be thus able to do more important right things in the future.

It’s a complex world...that might be the right thing to do.

In the long term there’s no point in politics in just sitting on the sidelines out of office saying all the right things but actually watching other people make all the decisions.

At some point..as a voter..waiting for a party full of saints that take all the right stances on every issue...you have to look at the main parties that are capable of wielding power and vote for the one that’s the best available.

If we were talking about someone who had cheated on their wife/husband?

I guess I could see where you are coming from.

When it comes to a pretty credibly accused rapist?

There is no realistic scenario where looking the other way was "Doing A Small Wrong..." At the very least, we should be able to be realistic about that.

Certainly no scenario where it was the "Right..." thing to do.

Never mind what it would mean for the party ever being able to credibly attack a sexual harasser or a rapist again.

While the Dems aren't really a party I see eye to eye with, I don't doubt for one second that they could run this guy out of the party and stand a pretty good chance of winning that office. I sure don't see the upside with female voters if you don't.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Katherine Lauren Hill

That actually did cost them. Mike Garcia beat Christy Smith in the special election and I think a lot of CA Dems thought it wasn't a big deal because of the general, but she's losing by about 400 votes and it's pretty much the end

[Adam Allen]

It's fair to say Democrats should be mindful of practical considerations. But that means it's hypocritical to ever blame Republicans for doing the same.

There is an insistence that Republicans of good character support the Democrat in a general election in which the Republican has a scandal, even if it means they're going to be less likely to get their policy objectives. It seems to be more about partisan gain than principal if Democrats are generally only willing to throw someone under the bus when it won't result in a Republican taking over.

As for Fairfax, there is more the party could do. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee warned that vendors and strategists who work for primary challengers of incumbents will be blacklisted. They could do the same for anyone who works for Fairfax. They choose not to, which shows their priorities.

Well, another factor that unfortunately has to be considered is the possibility of political opponents manufacturing scandal to try to use your principles against you. Because -- and I am really kind of on an island by myself with the opinion -- I personally think that's what happened with Franken. I think the primary accuser in his case, the one from the stupidly staged picture, was transparently politically motivated, and that beyond her you had Franken trapped by the allegations against him being mostly things that could not be provable one way or another, could easily be interactions that could seem very different just from the perspective of two different individuals, but which he cannot strongly deny without looking like a creep. Ultimately all of it together ended up looking like a "where there's smoke, there's fire" kind of thing, but ultimately I think it's a case where Democrats shot themselves in the foot over principle. And even though Franken was replaced by another Democrat, it's not true to say it's all the same. He had been one of the most consistently progressive senators while he was in office. Nothing against his replacement, I just voted for her in this past election, but she definitely has not been as much of a standard bearer as Franken was ... and, to be clear here, if he is some kind of sexual predator, then of course he should be removed from power, even if that meant a Republican taking his place. My point is that I don't think he actually is a predator.

And the Fairfax thing is difficult, because the allegations against him did seem kind of suspiciously timed for a perfect political storm. I mean, at his point I suppose that I have no choice but to side with the people saying he should step down, and I definitely don't think he should run for governor. But, it is not as if you have the sheer avalanche of accusations against him, that you have against Trump. Sure, on some level, that should not matter -- one actual assault would be enough, and of course we are caught here in the general rule that you want to believe the accuser; it would definitely be a bad look, to suggest that either of them could be not telling the whole truth.

But, I also think there is a degree of practical concern to realistically consider -- do we really want to commit to the standard that any accusation must automatically be taken as true? Clearly that would not be an ideal stance to take, so the question becomes, where exactly do we draw the line? My instinct would be to suggest there cannot be a hard and fast rule, that seeking the capital-T Truth will inevitably mean we need to consider each case individually.

But, again just to be clear, I am going to say I think Fairfax needs to step back. If he is in fact innocent of the accusations made against him, that's an argument better made when he does not stand to gain political power from making it. It would be unfair, if he is innocent, for his political career to be over -- but, in short, there are much worse injustices in the world, than that.

[Adam Allen]

Katherine Lauren Hill

Yeah, that one sucks. I don't think I even agree that she should have needed to step down. Kind of what JackDaw said about waiting for a party full of saints.

[JackDaw]

If we were talking about someone who had cheated on their wife/husband?

I guess I could see where you are coming from.

When it comes to a pretty credibly accused rapist?

There is no realistic scenario where looking the other way was "Doing A Small Wrong..." At the very least, we should be able to be realistic about that.

Certainly no scenario where it was the "Right..." thing to do.

Never mind what it would mean for the party ever being able to credibly attack a sexual harasser or a rapist again.

While the Dems aren't really a party I see eye to eye with, I don't doubt for one second that they could run this guy out of the party and stand a pretty good chance of winning that office. I sure don't see the upside with female voters if you don't.

A “pretty credibly accused rapist” ought to be tried in court.

But yes...of course...I agree that there are some acts so heinous that I would probably find it impossible to vote for any party that tried to cover them up or support them in any way....but like you I would hope that public revulsion would be so strong that it would never be politically expedient to turn a blind eye to such acts.

[numberthirty]

A “pretty credibly accused rapist” ought to be tried in court.

But yes...of course...I agree that there are some acts so heinous that I would probably find it impossible to vote for any party that tried to cover them up or support them in any way....but like you I would hope that public revulsion would be so strong that it would never be politically expedient to turn a blind eye to such acts.

On that much?

I'm not going to say that I think that there is no way that they will do the right thing.

Just saying that it's pretty disappointing to see things have gone this far without anyone really taking the guy to task.

[numberthirty]

A “pretty credibly accused rapist” ought to be tried in court.

But yes...of course...I agree that there are some acts so heinous that I would probably find it impossible to vote for any party that tried to cover them up or support them in any way....but like you I would hope that public revulsion would be so strong that it would never be politically expedient to turn a blind eye to such acts.

On that aspect...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...fab_story.html

Why Justin Fairfax keeps talking about the sex assault claims against him

Fairfax’s first move, just minutes after his lawyers alerted him to the letter, was to call a friend in another state. They exchanged six phone calls that day before the allegation became public, according to phone records Fairfax provided recently to The Washington Post.

Fairfax (D) may have been looking for moral support from the friend, who had been a fraternity brother at Duke University and a groomsman at Fairfax’s wedding. But he says he was seeking something else: a witness who could clear him.

In the year since, the friend has never come forward, despite Fairfax’s increasingly vociferous efforts to draw him out. And Fairfax has been stuck in an excruciating state of limbo, neither convicted nor cleared of an offense that, while disqualifying in any era, would be especially toxic in the time of #MeToo.

Duke classmate Meredith Watson accused Fairfax of raping her on campus in 2000. Her lawyer, Nancy Erika Smith, has never directly answered questions about whether someone else was in the room during the alleged assault. She declined to do so for this report. “Ms. Watson continues to call for a public hearing in which all parties testify under oath about Fairfax’s rape,” Smith said, referring to a legislative hearing that Republicans pitched last year but Democrats rebuffed as political theater. “Fairfax prefers to do whatever possible to avoid that and would rather continue these despicable distractions.”

Having failed to coax his friend to come forward, Fairfax has tried to force him out. He sought to have him questioned in a criminal investigation, but the district attorney has given no indication such a probe is underway. Fairfax also tried to have his friend subpoenaed in his unsuccessful lawsuit against CBS. Fairfax’s habit of publicly invoking and disputing the allegations has critics accusing him of “bullying” his alleged victims. Even some allies think he should move on. But some analysts say he has little choice but to keep doing what he is doing.

[Farealmer]

1606538240225.jpg

Just a reminder things aren't over.

[JackDaw]

On that much?

I'm not going to say that I think that there is no way that they will do the right thing.

Just saying that it's pretty disappointing to see things have gone this far without anyone really taking the guy to task.

I think the Democrats are in a near impossible position in this particular case.

Effectively they have asked him to resign so he can concentrate on clearing his name, and he has refused.

Can they go further than that legally (do they have power to sack him?)?

And if they can sack him...is it the right thing to do morally? (At what point should some one be sacked as a result of accusations that have not be proven in court?)

But as a general point..any party is bound to make mistakes, take wrong positions, etc...at some point you have take the “helicopter view” and ask which is the better overall.