1. #35086
    Sans Pants ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Wisconsin Lawmakers Attempt To Ban Words Like ‘Woke,’ ‘Systemic Racism’ and ‘White Supremacy’ From State School Curriculum

    But it's Qpublicans who whine non-stop about liberals practicing "Cancel Culture". Here's the proposed list:

    This is part of the package of Anti-Critical Race Theory legislation recently distributed nationwide by the Heritage Foundation and ALEC. The goal is to gin up outrage in conservative families by creating a crisis that doesn't exist where their children's delicate minds are being threatened by the "woke agenda".
    They have to keep their base engaged and feeling threatened so they'll get out and vote R across the board in every election whether it be County Sherrif, School Board or President.
    Last edited by ChadH; 10-24-2021 at 12:54 PM.
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  2. #35087
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    This is part of the package of Anti-Critical Race Theory legislation recently distributed nationwide by the Heritage Foundation and ALEC. The goal is to gin up outrage in conservative families by creating a crisis that doesn't exist where their children's delicate minds are being threatened by the "woke agenda".
    They have to keep their base engaged and feeling threatened so they'll get out and vote R across the board in every election whether it be County Sherrif, School Board or President.
    Meanwhile. Trump is still trying to stop voters from voting, especially Rs.

    As Trump Thunders About Last Election, Republicans Worry About the Next One

    Republicans believe they have a good shot at taking Congress next year. But there’s a catch.

    The G.O.P.’s ambitions of ending unified Democratic control in Washington in 2022 are colliding with a considerable force that has the ability to sway tens of millions of votes: former President Donald J. Trump’s increasingly vocal demands that members of his party remain in a permanent state of obedience, endorsing his false claims of a stolen election or risking his wrath.

    In a series of public appearances and statements over the last week, Mr. Trump has signaled not only that he plans to work against Republicans he deems disloyal, but also that his meritless claims that widespread voter fraud cost him the White House in 2020 will be his litmus test, going so far as to threaten that his voters will sit out future elections.

    “If we don’t solve the Presidential Election Fraud of 2020,” Mr. Trump said in a statement last week, “Republicans will not be voting in ’22 or ’24. It’s the single most important thing for Republicans to do.”
    The former president’s fixation on disproved conspiracy theories is frustrating to many in his party who see it as needlessly divisive at a time when Republicans feel they are poised to take back the House of Representatives and perhaps the Senate in the 2022 midterm elections. They worry he could cost Republicans otherwise winnable seats in Congress and complicate the party’s more immediate goal of winning the governor’s race in Virginia next month.

    The concern over Mr. Trump’s attempts to make all federal elections a referendum on him points to the larger debate among Republicans over what his role should be, as someone who remains singularly popular with the party’s base but is also a liability with swing voters and a motivator for Democrats to turn out.
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  3. #35088
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Meanwhile. Trump is still trying to stop voters from voting, especially Rs.

    As Trump Thunders About Last Election, Republicans Worry About the Next One
    Trump will NEVER stop bitching about the election having been “stolen” from him since he refuses to admit having legitimately lost. And yeah, that does put Qpublicans in one hell of a quandary because he’s screwing up their chances of success next year and ‘24, to which I say....GOOD!
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  4. #35089
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    In high school I took an intro class to basic economics (things like how the Stock Market worked, and so on). Equity, one of their banned terms, is used often in finance. "Equity represents the value that would be returned to a company’s shareholders if all of the assets were liquidated and all of the company's debts were paid off."

    Okay, and there is Colorism, a word that can be is used in art classes. Even if teacher started talking about colors, that might be close enough to get them in trouble. Whiteness can also be used in art classes.

    Intersection, a word used in math classes "The intersection of two sets has only the elements common to both sets."

    I mean the whole thing is insane and very anti-democratic. Once you start making free speech illegal, then what's next?
    I don't think the "equity is a finance term" argument is a strong one.

    It hints at a compromise I don't think you're interested in. It should be pretty easy to revise any regulations to ensure that terms that have multiple meanings can be used in the non-DEI contexts ("woke" as the literal past tense of wake, "whiteness" in art class, "intersection" in math class.)

    You guys presumably wouldn't want that because you would prefer teachers be able to discuss these topics. My guess is that you would want (as I do) teachers to be able to mention colorism, the idea that there may be prejudice against people because or their skin tone.

    The free speech argument is also complicated because we have a general understanding that public school education can be heavily regulated. How many people here would defend the free speech rights of teachers to encourage bigotry in their assignments?
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  5. #35090
    Incredible Member Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Oh, goody! It’s the “both sides are bad” argument again. Okay, show me an example of Democrats having proposed an equally insane plan similar to what’s going on in Wisconsin to ban dozens of words because it hurt their tender fee-fees like with Qpublicans.
    https://www.silive.com/news/2012/03/...nyc_schoo.html
    The city Department of Education is aiming to get 50 words removed from some city-issued standardized tests, and some of them are real head-scratchers.

    Among the off-limits terms: "politics," "poverty," and "religion."

    The reasoning: The words might be distracting to segments of the city's diverse student population.
    https://nypost.com/2021/06/28/brande...-of-stupidity/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...conservatives/ Conspiracy theories aren’t just for conservatives
    On balance, partisanship may influence which conspiracy theories we see, but not how often we are likely to see them. Neither liberals nor conservatives are more credulous or crazy. If both sides understood this, it might make it a little easier for them to work together. - Alfred Moore is a Research Fellow at the Centre for Research in Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences at the University of Cambridge, working on the Conspiracy and Democracy project.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ckdown/618780/

    After Emily Oster, an economist at Brown University, argued in The Atlantic in March that families should plan to take their kids on trips and see friends and relatives this summer, a reader sent an email to her supervisors at the university suggesting that Oster be promoted to a leadership role in the field of “genocide encouragement.” “Far too many people are not dying in our current global pandemic, and far too many children are not yet infected,” the reader wrote. “With the upcoming consequences of global warming about to be felt by a wholly unprepared worldwide community, I believe the time is right to get young scholars ready to follow in Dr. Oster’s footsteps and ensure the most comfortable place to be is white [and] upper-middle-class.” (“That email was something,” Oster told me.)
    Last edited by Xheight; 10-24-2021 at 02:51 PM.
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  6. #35091
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I don't think the "equity is a finance term" argument is a strong one.

    It hints at a compromise I don't think you're interested in. It should be pretty easy to revise any regulations to ensure that terms that have multiple meanings can be used in the non-DEI contexts ("woke" as the literal past tense of wake, "whiteness" in art class, "intersection" in math class.)

    You guys presumably wouldn't want that because you would prefer teachers be able to discuss these topics. My guess is that you would want (as I do) teachers to be able to mention colorism, the idea that there may be prejudice against people because or their skin tone.

    The free speech argument is also complicated because we have a general understanding that public school education can be heavily regulated. How many people here would defend the free speech rights of teachers to encourage bigotry in their assignments?
    You can't fight bigotry with bigotry. The only way to learn what bigotry is, is to have the freedom to talk about it, especially inn a classroom setting with teachers who are supposedly trained and educated enough to know how to use these terms in such a way as to make it a teaching lesson.

    When a teacher makes a mistake (or worse), they are usually called out on it. But the majority of teachers are doing their best to provide their students with the best educational experience possible.

    Free Speech isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. Free Speech so the right to speak, so long as what you say doesn't lead to direct harm, inciting violence, causing a wide scale panic that leads to dangerous conditions, or speaking so as to limit the free speech and other freedoms of others against their will or though ignorance.

    If a teacher teaches a class that encourages bigotry, that then leads to that teacher's students acting out against someone because their teacher said it was okay to do so, then yeah, the teacher would be called out for that. That's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of the ethical or unethical use of a teacher's powers over the minds of his or her students.

    We trust doctors to follow their oath and do what needs to be done to save lives, but if that doctor instead causes harm, either directly or indirectly by advocating a 'treatment' that isn't approved by any legit authority and is in fact potentially harmful, then one fo his or her patients dies from following that doctor's advice, the doctor will be called out for it, legally or otherwise.

    Banning words is like banning books is like banning ideas is like banning facts is like banning history is like banning religion is like banning language is like banning the culture of an entire group of people.

    So no, this is not a free speech issue. It's worse than that.
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  7. #35092
    Incredible Member Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Trump will NEVER stop bitching about the election having been “stolen” from him since he refuses to admit having legitimately lost. And yeah, that does put Qpublicans in one hell of a quandary because he’s screwing up their chances of success next year and ‘24, to which I say....GOOD!
    Legal but not lawful - that is the only legitimacy of the current regime. Fortunately changing the laws back from the excuse making emergency provisions might give the country a chance...or not

    Was the push to overturn the 2020 election a low point for U.S. democracy, or just a dress rehearsal? That sobering thought comes from election law expert Rick Hasen in a new Q&A with our own Zack Stanton. Says Hasen: “The rhetoric is so overheated that I think it provides the basis for millions of people to accept an actual stolen election as payback for the falsely claimed earlier ‘stolen’ election. People are going to be more willing to cheat if they think they’ve been cheated out of their just desserts.” Companion reading: “Can Joe Biden Recover?” by NYT’s Ross Douthat: “Along with any worries about Trump stealing the next presidential election … Democrats should recognize the possibility that he might simply win it. What’s gone wrong for Biden is a combination of bad luck, bad choices and inherent weakness.”>

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...4d&nlid=630318
    Of course the door swings both ways now https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...-are-in-motion For the Coup that calls itself the counter Coup

    Through a text-messaging system, Protect the Results would mobilize people to protest and to direct actions, including work strikes, if Trump attempts a power grab. It will also drive calls to state and local election officials — to ensure votes are respected, and to pressure them to denounce any attempts by Trump to undermine the process. The coalition runs a campaign via text, email and social media to inform about the project and to urge people in the United States to join the network. It also engages experts and academics to educate the public about the risks U.S democracy is facing.
    And if the whole wide world stops singing
    And all the stars go dark
    I'll turn a light on in my soul
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  8. #35093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Legal but not lawful - that is the only legitimacy of the current regime. Fortunately changing the laws back from the excuse making emergency provisions might give the country a chance...or not
    "Legal but not lawful."

    Basically "We have no evidence but our feelings!"

  9. #35094
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Legal but not lawful - that is the only legitimacy of the current regime. Fortunately changing the laws back from the excuse making emergency provisions might give the country a chance...or not
    Legal because there was not fraud and people voted in the approved manor at the approved times. But it was not lawful because our big orange cult leader didnt win and we cant stop bitching about and move on.

    That is how I read this statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Legal because there was not fraud and people voted in the approved manor at the approved times. But it was not lawful because our big orange cult leader didnt win and we cant stop bitching about and move on.

    That is how I read this statement.
    If my Big Bad Wolf was beaten by Mayo Biden, I have to admit, I'd be sore too.

  11. #35096
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Legal because there was not fraud and people voted in the approved manor at the approved times. But it was not lawful because our big orange cult leader didnt win and we cant stop bitching about and move on.

    That is how I read this statement.
    Trump's election lie is becoming the new 'Lost Cause and it might just be as damaging in the end.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  12. #35097
    Extraordinary Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Trump's election lie is becoming the new 'Lost Cause and it might just be as damaging in the end.
    I very much agree. We saw how damaging it was on the 6th. How bad would it be if he loses a second time in 2024?
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  13. #35098
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    You can't fight bigotry with bigotry. The only way to learn what bigotry is, is to have the freedom to talk about it, especially inn a classroom setting with teachers who are supposedly trained and educated enough to know how to use these terms in such a way as to make it a teaching lesson.

    When a teacher makes a mistake (or worse), they are usually called out on it. But the majority of teachers are doing their best to provide their students with the best educational experience possible.

    Free Speech isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. Free Speech so the right to speak, so long as what you say doesn't lead to direct harm, inciting violence, causing a wide scale panic that leads to dangerous conditions, or speaking so as to limit the free speech and other freedoms of others against their will or though ignorance.

    If a teacher teaches a class that encourages bigotry, that then leads to that teacher's students acting out against someone because their teacher said it was okay to do so, then yeah, the teacher would be called out for that. That's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of the ethical or unethical use of a teacher's powers over the minds of his or her students.

    We trust doctors to follow their oath and do what needs to be done to save lives, but if that doctor instead causes harm, either directly or indirectly by advocating a 'treatment' that isn't approved by any legit authority and is in fact potentially harmful, then one fo his or her patients dies from following that doctor's advice, the doctor will be called out for it, legally or otherwise.

    Banning words is like banning books is like banning ideas is like banning facts is like banning history is like banning religion is like banning language is like banning the culture of an entire group of people.

    So no, this is not a free speech issue. It's worse than that.
    There are a lot of issues here, with multiple questions like what is the best approach for teachers to take, what mistakes they should be allowed to make, and what restrictions can be placed on public sector employees. As these are complex questions, I'll be honest and note that I don't have all the answers.

    I agree that teachers should be able to talk about bigotry. I do think you can very quickly get into grey areas where reasonable people can disagree (IE- what should the government do about the gender wage gap? who should be held to a lower standard in the college application process?) and some people do not have the training or the maturity to deal with those kinds of situations or to accept that decent people may disagree with them.

    I do agree that banning words is dumb, although as Xheight noted a few posts back, this is also used by the left.

    The best anti-CRT argument is that it's about the lens, rather than the subject matter, that teachers should be able to discuss all sorts of topics, but that an interpretation should not be endorsed. These decisions will often be made by people who aren't familiar enough with these nuances, and who have their own preferences about what's covered and what's ignored.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #35099
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I very much agree. We saw how damaging it was on the 6th. How bad would it be if he loses a second time in 2024?
    It would likely be less damaging, just because he'll be completely out of power. He was still the incumbent President on January 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Trump will NEVER stop bitching about the election having been “stolen” from him since he refuses to admit having legitimately lost. And yeah, that does put Qpublicans in one hell of a quandary because he’s screwing up their chances of success next year and ‘24, to which I say....GOOD!
    In some good news for America, there are some signs the crackpots are less powerful.

    Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz's PAC has some lackluster numbers.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-cash-1243482/

    A Pro-Trump/ Anti-Vaxx rally headlined by Mike Flynn got a tenth of the anticipated audience.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...event-1247077/

    People may be moving on.
    Last edited by Mister Mets; 10-24-2021 at 04:37 PM.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #35100
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Trump's election lie is becoming the new 'Lost Cause and it might just be as damaging in the end.
    Trump has sown seeds of mistrust in the entire election system, and all because of his inability to accept having lost.
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