All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[The Cool Thatguy]

And for all of the atrocities committed by Australia, the US, and other "democratic" nations we have dead bodies, lots and lots of them. If you want to say that both are just as bad, then you need to apply the same standard of evidence on both sides. If you're going to assert that one side is worse despite the fact that far LESS evidence exists for its misdeeds than for the other, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Just be honest with me here, before this current spat with China started circa 2017 or so, did you even know that there was a Muslim ethnic group living in the northwest of the country with a distinct culture? It's okay if you didn't, I had no idea who the Rohingya were before they started showing up in the news either.

As a general rule, I don't memorize the various minority groups that exist around the world. But also as a general rule, I don't need to know about them beforehand to not want them to have their cultures erased.

We have dead bodies because we own up to what we've done. China is a one party dictatorship that maintains a deathgrip on information coming out of the country.

You think North Korea isn't a hell hole because we haven't seen the bodies?

[babyblob]

well, at least PwrdOn didn't deny that China invaded Vietnam. so, that's encouraging!

so, is the idea that they sent over 200,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks into Vietnamese territory for something other than territorial gain? what could that motive be?
why would they do this? why would they keep fighting for nearly a month? why would China launch a three pronged massive invasion, fight for nearly a month, withdraw, and then claim that they "won"?

just because they failed and backed out doesn't mean that China wasn't expecting an easy victory against an adversary (and former ally) that they looked down on. it also doesn't negate the possibility that China fully intended on KEEPING the territory they expected to easily conquer. you deny that China had territorial ambitions... and yet, you never bothered to provide an alternative motive!

so, it's good that China backed out. maybe they didn't want to emulate the Soviet or US occupation scenarios of Afghanistan. that's pretty sensible.

but saying that the borders didn't change shouldn't let them off the hook for trying!

that's like saying that if somebody attempts to rape another person, but fails to do so, that we should let them off the hook! after all, it wasn't actual rape... it was just an attempt!

An attempted takeover is not the same as a take over and there for it is okay. I mean Sideshow Bob explains pwrdOns theory the best.



I am using a ridiculous video for a ridiculous argument

[PwrdOn]

well, at least PwrdOn didn't deny that China invaded Vietnam. so, that's encouraging!

so, is the idea that they sent over 200,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks into Vietnamese territory for something other than territorial gain? what could that motive be?
why would they do this? why would they keep fighting for nearly a month? why would China launch a three pronged massive invasion, fight for nearly a month, withdraw, and then claim that they "won"?

just because they failed and backed out doesn't mean that China wasn't expecting an easy victory against an adversary (and former ally) that they looked down on. it also doesn't negate the possibility that China fully intended on KEEPING the territory they expected to easily conquer. you deny that China had territorial ambitions... and yet, you never bothered to provide an alternative motive!

so, it's good that China backed out. maybe they didn't want to emulate the Soviet or US occupation scenarios of Afghanistan. that's pretty sensible.

but saying that the borders didn't change shouldn't let them off the hook for trying!

that's like saying that if somebody attempts to rape another person, but fails to do so, that we should let them off the hook! after all, it wasn't actual rape... it was just an attempt!

Even if you don't know anything else about China, the "land war in Asia" meme should tell you that 200,000 soldiers is a drop in the bucket for them. As for the motives behind the attack, the consensus is generally that it had something to do with containing Soviet influence in Asia and, funnily enough, currying favor with the US, which had just begun the process of normalizing relations with the PRC and was of course reeling from its own experience in Vietnam. Had the invasion been wildly successful and they were able to drive all the way up to the gates of Hanoi, the goal would certainly NOT have been to annex Vietnam into China proper, but rather to install a new government in Vietnam that would favor Chinese interests over Soviet ones, and even that would be a rather iffy proposition given that it would almost certainly lead to a prolonged guerrilla war.

I don't know what else to tell you, in modern times states don't really seek to conquer new territory and subjugate foreign peoples. They however will fight vigorously to recapture what they consider to be stolen parts of their own homeland of course, but in China's case its claims have never extended to include Vietnam. And even this can lead to insurgencies and other headaches that even the most powerful militaries are unable to properly squash. Better to simply establish an economic hegemony over the region you want to control, and you can leave the troublesome task of actually governing to some other poor sap, while ensuring all the profits are funneled directly into your coffers.

As a general rule, I don't memorize the various minority groups that exist around the world. But also as a general rule, I don't need to know about them beforehand to not want them to have their cultures erased.

We have dead bodies because we own up to what we've done. China is a one party dictatorship that maintains a deathgrip on information coming out of the country.

You think North Korea isn't a hell hole because we haven't seen the bodies?

We don't own up to ****, there's a reason all of the really juicy information stays classified until as all of the people involved are mostly dead, and by the time it gets declassified we can just argue that "oh this was all in the past but we're different now, honest!"

And I at least appreciate your honesty for admitting you had no idea who the Uyghurs were before, but I am surprised that for someone with such a keen interest in their culture, you are so quick to dismiss them as just another faceless minority group who don't matter unless they can be used as a cudgel to demonize a rival state. In fact, Uyghur culture is quite distinctive because it claims heritage not just from the Turkic tribes whom the Uyghurs descend from, but also all of the other people groups who have passed through the region as part of the ancient silk road trade routes, which include Turks, Chinese, Iranians, Arabs, Mongols, and more, all of whom deposited a cultural and genetic legacy to the region. It's a reminder of a time when Central Asia was a thriving and prosperous hub of culture, commerce, religion, philosophy, and much more, before the trade routes broke down and the region turned into an impoverished backwater by, you guessed it, European colonization!

[Totoro Man]

And for all of the atrocities committed by Australia, the US, and other "democratic" nations we have dead bodies, lots and lots of them. If you want to say that both are just as bad, then you need to apply the same standard of evidence on both sides. If you're going to assert that one side is worse despite the fact that far LESS evidence exists for its misdeeds than for the other, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Just be honest with me here, before this current spat with China started circa 2017 or so, did you even know that there was a Muslim ethnic group living in the northwest of the country with a distinct culture? It's okay if you didn't, I had no idea who the Rohingya were before they started showing up in the news either.

I know the question wasn't directed at me... but, yes.

starting around 2013 I started researching China for a WW2 video game mod. my idea was to move away from the original game's focus on the major European powers and Japan and focus on the whole world. my ultimate goal was to include about 60 different countries and organizations from all around the world. I decided that China needed to be a major focal point for my mod. to try and reflect China better, I felt that I needed to represent the KMT, the Communists, the Manchukuo puppet state, the Kumul Uprising, and the Ili Rebellion. I also included Tibet - since Tibet made two invasion attempts of SW China in the early 1930s. I did research on the Sino-Soviet War of 1929, Kumul Uprisings between 1930 and 1934, and the Ili Rebellion in 1944/the Second East Turkestan Republic. I read about how the Soviets lent as much support to these predominantly Muslim uprisings as they could. they even helped launch an invasion in 1934. I also learned that there were over 50 major ethnicities in that massive country... and that they haven't always got along so very well.

which is why I find it astonishing that you can repeatedly assert that NOTHING unsavory is happening in this region! you haven't exactly argued "well, we should wait for more evidence." you've essentially been acting as a cheerleader for the Chinese government.

this back-and-forth about Xinjiang reminds of stumbling across a fun little book by C. L. R. James called "the World Revolution". it was written in 1937. James had the audacity/moxie to call out Stalin long before most people even suspected him of being anything other than the greatest Communist leader ever in the history of the world. Communism was considered a viable political option for a lot of people at that time. hell, even Duke Ellington was briefly a member of the US Communist party for awhile in the early 1930s.

naturally, as a black immigrant with Marxist convictions living in America, for James to call out Stalin as being evil was a rather bold move. there were LOTS of people that were very sympathetic to Communism in the US at the time. this opinion made him even MORE unpopular during WW2, when the US was trying to convince everybody that Stalinist Russia would help save the world from the cruelties of fascism.

the thing is... James was able to perceive just how evil Stalin was in spite of all the cover-ups, the hidden evidence, and opinions to the contrary at that time. you could say that he was "speaking truth to power" when it wasn't very popular.

there are so many people that can see something wrong seems to be going on in Xinjiang that it's kinda hard to believe there's not at least... something going on! it may not be full-blown genocide, but it's certainly no picnic.

hell, the Chinese government didn't play nice with people that weren't even minorities. look at Robert Jay Lifton's "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" written in 1961.

[The Cool Thatguy]

We don't own up to ****, there's a reason all of the really juicy information stays classified until as all of the people involved are mostly dead, and by the time it gets declassified we can just argue that "oh this was all in the past but we're different now, honest!"

And I at least appreciate your honesty for admitting you had no idea who the Uyghurs were before, but I am surprised that for someone with such a keen interest in their culture, you are so quick to dismiss them as just another faceless minority group who don't matter unless they can be used as a cudgel to demonize a rival state. In fact, Uyghur culture is quite distinctive because it claims heritage not just from the Turkic tribes whom the Uyghurs descend from, but also all of the other people groups who have passed through the region as part of the ancient silk road trade routes, which include Turks, Chinese, Iranians, Arabs, Mongols, and more, all of whom deposited a cultural and genetic legacy to the region. It's a reminder of a time when Central Asia was a thriving and prosperous hub of culture, commerce, religion, philosophy, and much more, before the trade routes broke down and the region turned into an impoverished backwater by, you guessed it, European colonization!

Explain to me why I have to know about a people to care that they not be exterminated?

I don't operate on the system of 'It only matters if I know them' with regards to not wanting a culture wiped out. I don't think cultural erasure in general, I'm just funny that way.

[PwrdOn]

I know the question wasn't directed at me... but, yes.

starting around 2013 I started researching China for a WW2 video game mod. my idea was to move away from the original game's focus on the major European powers and Japan and focus on the whole world. my ultimate goal was to include about 60 different countries and organizations from all around the world. I decided that China needed to be a major focal point for my mod. to try and reflect China better, I felt that I needed to represent the KMT, the Communists, the Manchukuo puppet state, the Kumul Uprising, and the Ili Rebellion. I also included Tibet - since Tibet made two invasion attempts of SW China in the early 1930s. I did research on the Sino-Soviet War of 1929, Kumul Uprisings between 1930 and 1934, and the Ili Rebellion in 1944/the Second East Turkestan Republic. I read about how the Soviets lent as much support to these predominantly Muslim uprisings as they could. they even helped launch an invasion in 1934. I also learned that there were over 50 major ethnicities in that massive country... and that they haven't always got along so very well.

which is why I find it astonishing that you can repeatedly assert that NOTHING unsavory is happening in this region! you haven't exactly argued "well, we should wait for more evidence." you've essentially been acting as a cheerleader for the Chinese government.

this back-and-forth about Xinjiang reminds of stumbling across a fun little book by C. L. R. James called "the World Revolution". it was written in 1937. James had the audacity/moxie to call out Stalin long before most people even suspected him of being anything other than the greatest Communist leader ever in the history of the world. Communism was considered a viable political option for a lot of people at that time. hell, even Duke Ellington was briefly a member of the US Communist party for awhile in the early 1930s.

naturally, as a black immigrant with Marxist convictions living in America, for James to call out Stalin as being evil was a rather bold move. there were LOTS of people that were very sympathetic to Communism in the US at the time. this opinion made him even MORE unpopular during WW2, when the US was trying to convince everybody that Stalinist Russia would help save the world from the cruelties of fascism.

the thing is... James was able to perceive just how evil Stalin was in spite of all the cover-ups, the hidden evidence, and opinions to the contrary at that time. you could say that he was "speaking truth to power" when it wasn't very popular.

there are so many people that can see something wrong seems to be going on in Xinjiang that it's kinda hard to believe there's not at least... something going on! it may not be full-blown genocide, but it's certainly no picnic.

hell, the Chinese government didn't play nice with people that weren't even minorities. look at Robert Jay Lifton's "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" written in 1961.

Well if you're familiar with the history of Xinjiang in the 20th century you'll realize the sides in the conflicts around the time of WW2 don't quite map well to today. The Soviets essentially tried to co-opt Uyghur nationalists to use them as proxies to expand their influence into China at the expense of the nationalist Chinese government, but when the communists won the civil war, most of the leadership of the Turkestan Republic readily acceded to the PRC, as both the Uyghurs and Chinese communists were under the wider Soviet umbrella. However, the Sino-Soviet split complicated matters since to the Uyghurs, this equated the PRC with the Chinese nationalists whom they had won their brief independence from, and the Soviets as the sponsors who had helped them win that independence, while the Chinese responded by stationing large numbers of soldiers to face off against the Soviet troops across the border, which is the source of much of the modern Han presence in the region. And after the Soviet Union collapsed, the Uyghur independence found a new sponsor in the form of fundamentalist Islam, which had emerged out of Saudi Arabia and was rallying jihadists in every restive corner of the planet to its cause. So ultimately, this conflict isn't really about religion or culture, it's about the Uyghurs wanting independence and the Chinese government not wanting to give it to them.

Explain to me why I have to know about a people to care that they not be exterminated?

I don't operate on the system of 'It only matters if I know them' with regards to not wanting a culture wiped out. I don't think cultural erasure in general, I'm just funny that way.

You must really hate living in the 21st century then, because modern science and technology has rendered a vast array of cultural traditions obsolete or irrelevant just about everywhere you look. Hell, just think about how many languages are going to die out because kids have no interest in learning anything other than English, for being basically the language of the internet.

The kind of Uyghur culture that the independence activists are promoting, that of an ethnically pure East Turkestan populated by ultra-conservative Muslims practicing a form of Islam that was unknown to the region until the 20th century, with long beards for men and face coverings for women, simply doesn't square with the historical reality of Xinjiang as a diverse and vibrant cultural melting pot, which it can and will become again. Kashgar should not become a carbon copy of Beijing, but neither should it look like Kandahar.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You must really hate living in the 21st century then, because modern science and technology has rendered a vast array of cultural traditions obsolete or irrelevant just about everywhere you look. Hell, just think about how many languages are going to die out because kids have no interest in learning anything other than English, for being basically the language of the internet.

The kind of Uyghur culture that the independence activists are promoting, that of an ethnically pure East Turkestan populated by ultra-conservative Muslims practicing a form of Islam that was unknown to the region until the 20th century, with long beards for men and face coverings for women, simply doesn't square with the historical reality of Xinjiang as a diverse and vibrant cultural melting pot, which it can and will become again. Kashgar should not become a carbon copy of Beijing, but neither should it look like Kandahar.

There is a vast difference between using the utility of smoke signals because we have cell phones now, and a government destroying historical sites, and throwing you into camps for practicing your religion.

Seriously, there seems to be no crime you can't absolve China of with disingenuous statements. I'm glad as hell I don't have a student in your class.

[PwrdOn]

There is a vast difference between using the utility of smoke signals because we have cell phones now, and a government destroying historical sites, and throwing you into camps for practicing your religion.

Seriously, there seems to be no crime you can't absolve China of with disingenuous statements. I'm glad as hell I don't have a student in your class.

I keep my personal opinions out of my classroom, thank you very much, and I never talk about politics if I can help it.

Besides, there are plenty of things I can criticize China for. For example, the invasion of Vietnam was generally speaking a pretty shitty thing to do to a fellow communist country, especially as it was undertaken to support Pol Pot who WAS committing genocide in his country. And the Cultural Revolution, also not really all that great, and Tiananmen square was not really a good look either. However, I will categorically reject anything advocated by Western-backed dissidents or independence movements, and all of them can really go **** off right back to Langley and Arlington, where they usually end up anyway after the world loses interest in them. Because whatever problems China has right now, none of them will be fixed by giving America more power in the region, I know that for a fact.

[numberthirty]

I keep my personal opinions out of my classroom, thank you very much, and I never talk about politics if I can help it.

Besides, there are plenty of things I can criticize China for. For example, the invasion of Vietnam was generally speaking a pretty shitty thing to do to a fellow communist country, especially as it was undertaken to support Pol Pot who WAS committing genocide in his country. And the Cultural Revolution, also not really all that great, and Tiananmen square was not really a good look either. However, I will categorically reject anything advocated by Western-backed dissidents or independence movements, and all of them can really go **** off right back to Langley and Arlington, where they usually end up anyway after the world loses interest in them. Because whatever problems China has right now, none of them will be fixed by giving America more power in the region, I know that for a fact.

Without really trying to get too involved in this one...

Take a look at everything from Mexico south.

That is what tends to happen when the US starts messing with your country.

[Scott Taylor]

Pretty sure there's a name for moving your people into an area that speak a different language than the locals, and then supplanting their language with your own. If only I could put my finger on it.

Wait, wait. Ethnic cleansing?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I keep my personal opinions out of my classroom, thank you very much, and I never talk about politics if I can help it.

Besides, there are plenty of things I can criticize China for. For example, the invasion of Vietnam was generally speaking a pretty shitty thing to do to a fellow communist country, especially as it was undertaken to support Pol Pot who WAS committing genocide in his country. And the Cultural Revolution, also not really all that great, and Tiananmen square was not really a good look either. However, I will categorically reject anything advocated by Western-backed dissidents or independence movements, and all of them can really go **** off right back to Langley and Arlington, where they usually end up anyway after the world loses interest in them. Because whatever problems China has right now, none of them will be fixed by giving America more power in the region, I know that for a fact.

Your disingenuous statements are enough.

So China can only be held responsible to what they do to fellow communist countries?

[babyblob]

At this point I am not sure why you all are even trying to debate him at this point. Not that you guys are wrong but it was clear several pages ago that he is not interested in a serious debate. he just wants to spout off his views so you can respond and talk down to the rest of us. His statement proves that.

Well you know I am an educator and taking time out of my day to inform the ignorant is always well worth the effort.

Cant have a serious debate when someone declares your views ignorant and it is their job to educate you. There are many who are happy to have a good faith debate. Not sure he is one of them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

At this point I am not sure why you all are even trying to debate him at this point. Not that you guys are wrong but it was clear several pages ago that he is not interested in a serious debate. he just wants to spout off his views so you can respond and talk down to the rest of us. His statement proves that.



Cant have a serious debate when someone declares your views ignorant and it is their job to educate you. There are many who are happy to have a good faith debate. Not sure he is one of them.

Fair point, but sometimes I can't stop wasting a Sunday :P

[Gray Lensman]

At this point I am not sure why you all are even trying to debate him at this point. Not that you guys are wrong but it was clear several pages ago that he is not interested in a serious debate. he just wants to spout off his views so you can respond and talk down to the rest of us. His statement proves that.

Well, his statements seem to boil down to "Colonialism means China is excused for EVERYTHING!"

As terrible as colonialism was (and it was a horror show with ramifications echoing to this day) it isn't a get out of jail free card for anything else.

Although I knew he was gonna go off on a tirade the moment Tami posted something that was critical of China in any way.

[PwrdOn]

Your disingenuous statements are enough.

So China can only be held responsible to what they do to fellow communist countries?

Enough for what? The only honest thing you've said this entire conversation is admitting that you had no idea who the Uyghurs were before you became such a spirited advocate for them.

And maybe you're a bit confused, but I was giving a list of things that I would personally criticize China for. I'm not quite sure what it is with the media and the foreign policy blob and their fetish for "holding China accountable" because I see that phrase in pretty much every article I read and it's just tiresome beyond belief. Who exactly is going to hold China accountable, and how? If you're expecting some Nuremberg type scenario, that kind of requires winning a war first and then subjecting them to victor's justice, something which I have been assured will never happen under Joe Biden's watch.

Let's be very clear about something here - the #1 threat that China poses to this country is that, by acting as a bogeyman on which we can blame pretty much everything, they prevent us from engaging in any kind of self-reflection or self-improvement, so that over time we will grow ignorant, stupid, and weak, while the Chinese continue to move forward. We all laughed when Trump claimed that climate change was a Chinese hoax, but the Biden administration's China policy isn't any more intellectually rigorous. So when people go around claiming that the coronavirus was a Chinese bioweapon, or that 5G towers are Chinese spy stations, or that "stop Asian hate" was a Chinese propaganda op, then ultimately that hurts us far more than it hurts the Chinese. When we hype up this Uyghur genocide narrative while brushing aside Australian war crimes as merely the product of rogue soldiers caught in the fog of war, we shouldn't be surprised when our efforts to form an alliance of Muslim nations to combat the Chinese falls flat on its face. When we start lecturing African nations about how China building ports and railroads is "neocolonialism" when they are very well aware of what colonialism is and who did it to them, that just makes it even harder for our investment projects there to get off the ground. When we go around telling poor countries that Chinese vaccines don't work and that they should wait for Pfizer shipments that will never come, that kills people and makes these countries question our commitment to public health. Yes, the Chinese make plenty of diplomatic blunders as well, but if there's one thing that country understands better than just about anyone else, it's how dangerous it can be to have an overblown sense of self-importance and invincibility, and there's nothing they'd like more than to see us make the same mistake.

Well, his statements seem to boil down to "Colonialism means China is excused for EVERYTHING!"

As terrible as colonialism was (and it was a horror show with ramifications echoing to this day) it isn't a get out of jail free card for anything else.

Although I knew he was gonna go off on a tirade the moment Tami posted something that was critical of China in any way.

I think it's unfair to characterize my posts as a tirade. Yeah I typed a lot, but I wasn't really expecting to change anyone's mind and just wanted to have a discussion about some topics I happen to know a bit about. But evidently, nobody is really all that interested in delving deep into the details of the Ili Rebellion or the Sino-Vietnamese War, or the history of the South China Sea dispute. You guys just seemed to want to declare that China was self-evidently bad, and that I was a propaganda spewing bot for saying otherwise, and that was the extent to which you would engage with any of these topics. And yeah, I suppose if you think that I'm just a paid propagandist, then there's not really much I can do to convince you otherwise. Really, I am just a guy who is sick of getting PERSONALLY blamed, as a American citizen no less, for every last cartoonishly evil thing people assume China to be doing, and I assure you I WISH I was making that line up. If anything, that actually compelled me to do a lot more research into these topics than I otherwise would, so I think I am a lot more informed about the situation now than I would be if I could just ignore it like all of you have, so some good has come out of it at least.