All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Mister Mets]

I would prefer not to have Biden or Trump win the next presidential election. From the reactions, it seems the CNN town hall has increased the chances of both occurring.

[Vakanai]

Personally, I'm more into self-deprecating sarcasm than exaggerating the problems of the other side. I fully admit there are plenty of Republicans with a similar coping mechanism to what they see as excesses of the left.

I don't really do self-deprecating sarcasm. Like I said, it's a coping mechanism, and self-deprecation isn't a possible coping mechanism for me. I'm so full of self loathing and hatred that when I try it all the sarcasm quickly evaporates and it's just me there belittling myself; I do enough of that every day. And as you said, the right often employs the same tactic to liberals like myself. Don't hold me or others to standards you've rarely if ever have been seen holding to them please.

It helps a bit to come from a shared frame of reference, because some people will have crazy views or at least pretend to have it, so it gets hard to figure out when someone wants to be taken literally, or when they (as is often described as Trump and his fans) want to be taken seriously but not literally.

I'm not Trump, and certainly not a fan of his - I don't say something was sarcastic or told in jest because I've been caught saying something heinous, I don't knowingly spread lies and misinformation then backtrack by saying no one was supposed to take me seriously. I consider myself to be of average intellect and average emotions - I believe then that the average person can tell when I'm being crass or exasperated and which bits are serious recommendations and opinions and which are jibes and jabs born out of disgust of the news of the day.

People with anger issues should be barred from owning guns - a legitimate opinion I hold. Fox "News" viewers shouldn't own guns - a sarcastic stab at the majority helping keep popular and common sense gun reform eternally at bay.

These definitions can be exploited. Is anyone who says anything negative about Christians or white men (or white women) engaging in hate speech? There's some of that in the tens of thousands of posts in this thread.

No, there isn't. "Old white men" when used in this thread isn't actually talking about all old white men, but specifically the average conservative and the Republican base who are by vast majority older white men by an extremely large margin. It's not ageist or racist but simple acknowledgment that the conservative party is in no way inclusive and is very much exclusive, that it drums up the fear and anger of a certain demographic that is shocked that the world of today doesn't look like it did the majority of their lives. Older people are vulnerable, and the Republican Party disgustingly plays on their vulnerabilities to fear and confusion to make them think the liberals are out to get them. And what is said isn't hateful or spiteful but exasperated and tired because modern conservatism has swung all the way to the radical, racist, homophobic, and misogynistic far right. It's the political discourse born out when the absolute worst of a political party has taken complete control of the party.

And as for these definitions being exploitable - who cares? Every way you can possibly define or word and phrase something is going to have some whackos interpreting it in a way to exploit it. The answer isn't to wait for a definition that's impervious to miraculously come up or to do nothing and just let the hate and violence continue on unabated, but to enact those definitions and rules now and amend and clarify as needed. This is what normal people do, this is what most people want, but all these debates are for is to try and get around that because usually one person in the debate wants nothing to be done and doesn't want the hate speech to stop.

There are some big distinctions in what counts as criminal incitement. In the US, it's about encouraging people to do something illegal. Going with the Google definition, pointing out criminal acts by police officers can be incitement since this naturally leads to riots. So we should be careful when considering policies.

Riots are not the same as protests - when someone storms the US Capitol it's a riot, when people march in the street demanding police reform because of the criminal acts committed by police officers it's a protest. I would hope such incitement would continue, because that's not criminal no matter how some may try to paint it as such.

The edge cases aren't theoretical.

By and large they are - they rarely happen, they're usually obviously trying to game the system in a "take that!" manner, and they can easily be addressed at that time. Giving platforms to hate speech until these edge cases are sorted out is a benefit only to those who engage in or enjoy hate speech.

There are things that are racist and bad that aren't incitement or hate speech.

And rules can be made for those as well.

And every now and then there are absurd controversies in places controlled by the left which suggest potential problems if there's a similar level of control over the levers in power in government (I will not dispute the idea that there are abuses in places controlled by the right.)

I don't understand the point? I have never argued that the left were incapable of controversies or abuse, only that hate speech shouldn't be allowed to flourish as it is being allowed to now (indeed, Elon Musk seem to be encouraging it).

A trans man competing against women is likely to receive similar benefits to someone taking steroids, so it probably isn't a good idea for them to compete against women in formal sports leagues. I think I misread an earlier statement of yours, so apologies on that.

Another way to look at it is that a trans man competing against women is similar to a man competing against women; and the followup is that a trans woman competing against men is like a woman competing against men.

As for the idea that a fraction of trans men have delayed puberty, this fits a claim that I generally see from people on the left that trans preadolescents are more often than not prevented from getting necessary care as soon as possible. According to one analysis of the literature, 65% of transgender and nonbinary people received some form of counseling, hormones, and/or puberty blockers, and 25-35% of trans people have undergone some form of gender conforming surgery.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

The implication would be that less than half of trans men of the age to compete in sports received puberty blockers. I am open to the argument that a majority (or close enough that the term "fraction" is inadequate) of younger trans men and trans boys receive puberty blockers, but there does not appear to be much evidence on that. If we're talking about hormones which seem to be more important than puberty blockers in the context of sports, the data seems a bit vague.

Emphasis mine - your party is the one keeping young trans people from getting the puberty blockers they want and need, and now you're using it as a reason why they should be kept out of sports?

[Vakanai]

I would prefer not to have Biden or Trump win the next presidential election. From the reactions, it seems the CNN town hall has increased the chances of both occurring.

Between Trump and Biden however, which would you prefer?

[kidfresh512]

What CNN hoped to gain by this trump town hall is baffling. Let's grab some of the MAGA trolls with lies and talking over our reporter who is trying to get a higher profile on the network herself? Everyone knows what they get with a Trump interview or town hall.

He doesnt know **** about policy. He is going to lie, and spread conspiracy. That is it that is all. Rinse and repeat. Same as 2016 when they aired every stop on his tour of lies live. Every media market that gives him airtime is just lending their own credibility if they have any to the lies.

Because people wont hear the fact check after. They will say they heard the conspiracy again on CNN.

[Tendrin]

On the matter of that ABC poll:

Let's not forget all those polls that pointed to a red wave and how some of us were skeptical of them and got dismissed for being 'conspiracists' when we speculated that there might be an intentional effort to flood the zone with GOP friendly polls.

And then it turned out that's exactly what they were doing. :P

[PaulBullion]

On the matter of that ABC poll:

Let's not forget all those polls that pointed to a red wave and how some of us were skeptical of them and got dismissed for being 'conspiracists' when we speculated that there might be an intentional effort to flood the zone with GOP friendly polls.

And then it turned out that's exactly what they were doing. :P

This. And outliers witll out lie.

I am wondering how the polls can differ so much on Biden's approval rating. In one day, the spread goes from negative 14 to positive 3.

[PaulBullion]

CNN hoped a Trump town hall would give them credibility with the GOP. Instead, they got dunked on.

CNN and Trump were looking for a symbiotic relationship, per The Wall Street Journal and Puck's Byers: Trump gets primetime and branches out beyond core MAGA voters, and CNN works to burnish their politically balanced credentials, and, after flagging viewership, gets a night of big ratings.

And CNN certainly seemed to be eager for conservative buy-in during the Wednesday town hall, filling the room with a mixture of New Hampshire Republicans and effectively independent voters. Their responses included clapping and cheering the former president as he joked about being found liable for sexually abusing E. Jean Carroll.

Trump refused to say whether he wants Ukraine to win in its ongoing war against Russia, which invaded the country without provocation last February, nor would he contend that Russian President Vladimir Putin is a war criminal.

He pledged to pardon a "large portion" of Jan. 6 rioters, doubled down on his previous claims that former Vice President Mike Pence should have overturned the 2020 elections results, dodged specifics about whether he would institute a federal abortion ban, and fought back-and-forth with Collins over the size of his administration's border wall.

...

The New York Times reported on Wednesday that Trump's advisers were "thrilled" with how the appearance went in front of a vocally supportive crowd.

[Malvolio]

CNN is like the kid in school so desperate to have the cool kids like her that she humiliates herself in the process and not only do the cool kids still make fun of her, but she also loses whatever respect she had from anyone else.

[MacrossPlus]

It's starting to become clear that CNN, somehow, still sees Trump as a Ratings Magnet and view Biden as a boring president

[WestPhillyPunisher]

It's starting to become clear that CNN, somehow, still sees Trump as a Ratings Magnet and view Biden as a boring president

I've said this before: When it comes to Trump, the media will gleefully flush democracy down the toilet for the sake of increased newspaper sales, TV ratings and website clicks. Chaos sells, and Trump provided plenty of that while Biden doesn't, and that's all the media cares about. Hell, I believe CBS' head honcho Leslie Moonves even said as much after Trump launched his campaign in 2016, between last night's train wreck and 60 Minutes trashing it's reputation with the MTG mess of an intereview, nothing's changed today.

[Mister Mets]

Between Trump and Biden however, which would you prefer?

I'll respond to your longer post in more depth later, but as I've said before, I voted for Biden over Trump and I've seen nothing in Trump's behavior after to make me regret that decision.

What CNN hoped to gain by this trump town hall is baffling. Let's grab some of the MAGA trolls with lies and talking over our reporter who is trying to get a higher profile on the network herself? Everyone knows what they get with a Trump interview or town hall.

He doesnt know **** about policy. He is going to lie, and spread conspiracy. That is it that is all. Rinse and repeat. Same as 2016 when they aired every stop on his tour of lies live. Every media market that gives him airtime is just lending their own credibility if they have any to the lies.

Because people wont hear the fact check after. They will say they heard the conspiracy again on CNN.

It makes sense for CNN to have a town hall with a presidential contender.

They handled it badly.

One thing it seems to me they could've done is to have video contradicting common lies and to play it on a screen every time Trump repeats the lie. They could play the same clip over and over again for the full hour if need be.

This. And outliers witll out lie.

I am wondering how the polls can differ so much on Biden's approval rating. In one day, the spread goes from negative 14 to positive 3.

Unfortunately, some of those polls suggest a competitive election. A three point national loss can be enough for Trump to win the electoral college.

Obviously the election isn't held right now, and the campaign matters, but in a race between the incumbent President and the former President, there's less new information out there to change a voter's mind.

[babyblob]

That CNN town Hall was a freaking mess.

Ll it did was now give the GOP and the Cult a chance to say

"See you guys let Trump spread his message on your news station so it must be true."

It was a bad play. I get why having a man running for president on a town hall. But damn did they handle it badly to say the least.

[PaulBullion]

That CNN town Hall was a freaking mess.

Ll it did was now give the GOP and the Cult a chance to say

"See you guys let Trump spread his message on your news station so it must be true."

It was a bad play. I get why having a man running for president on a town hall. But damn did they handle it badly to say the least.

CNN’s Oliver Darcy Reports CEO Chris Licht and Network are ‘Facing Fury of Criticism’ Within Company After Trump Town Hall

“It’s hard to see how America was served by the spectacle of lies that aired on CNN Wednesday evening,” wrote Darcy in CNN’s Reliable Sources newsletter.


Darcy wrote that “CNN and new network boss Chris Licht are facing a fury of criticism — both internally and externally over the event,” before adding, “How Licht and other CNN executives address the criticism in the coming days and weeks will be crucial.”

[babyblob]

CNN’s Oliver Darcy Reports CEO Chris Licht and Network are ‘Facing Fury of Criticism’ Within Company After Trump Town Hall

Meanwhile the GOP and right wing nut jobs are going on about what a success it was.

My aunt had a watch party at her apartment for her Hardcore Trumper friends. My dad and I got a phone call after it was over

"DId you see how the people love him? And that is from CNN. If CNN loves him and gives him a chance what do you two have to say now?" And her thoughts are echoed by all her fellow cult members.

That town hall was very damaging to CNN.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

CNN is like the kid in school so desperate to have the cool kids like her that she humiliates herself in the process and not only do the cool kids still make fun of her, but she also loses whatever respect she had from anyone else.

This is basically it. Republicans hate CNN. All Republicans who support Trump saw was him "dunking on CNN and their moderator". Then everyone else was just disgusted by the whole charade.