All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Hellion]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Gimme something to roast him with, please and thank you!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Writing for New York magazine, Eric Levitz describes the bad electoral outcomes for progressives.

It's not like you care a great deal but interesting reading and thanks for sharing.

Any case 2022 is a bit away and electorates and so on aren't destiny.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Gimme something to roast him with, please and thank you!

Just say Trump One-Term Loser, the Republican Jimmy Carter, that will be enough.

[Ragged Maw]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Errrrr, depends on what you mean by your "own facts".

[Kirby101]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Gimme something to roast him with, please and thank you!

Bet him. Tell him to put his money where his mouth is. He will slink away.

[Godzilla2099]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Gimme something to roast him with, please and thank you!

At least you have actual facts

[The no face guy]

That doesn't mean as much as you think it does on the face of things. On paper yes it sounds good, but in practise it came at a steep price. A politician can have success and be a failure. Woodrow Wilson had success in his time, today he's considered a terrible President (rightly so). Bill Clinton likewise has diminished.

Agreed, the center left wins elections, but they don’t always produce the best outcomes in the long term.

Let’s remember though that Bill Clinton was further to the right than any modern democrat, because he had to broker deals with a Republican controlled senate, and had to bring the Democratic Party out the wilderness, because the electorate continually rejected big government tax and spend democrats. Personally Obama is more to my liking of where the left should be.

Blair followed the same path, he brought Labour out of the wilderness by moving dramatically to the center left, labour eventually lost because they lost the white working class largely over migration rates...to address the uncomfortable elephant in the room, for better or worse, were all aware of.

They got thumped for a whole bunch of reasons but I don't want tog et into. I agree with Corbyn's platform in general and I felt really depressed when he got clobbered because the innately sadistic spirit of the English (the British are naturally more Draco Malfoy and Dudley Dursley than Neville Longbottom or Ron Weasley) would have had a field day on him, and it's depressing seeing the spectacle of his national humiliation. I do feel about Corbyn and the Labour Party, "they're a rotten crowd, you're better than the whole damn bunch of them put together".

Corbyn suffered because he wasn't a political genius and he really needed to be. He got a brilliant opportunity for any major leftist. That he lasted as long as he did from 2015-2019 in the face of that was impressive. But then he lost, and to quote a line from Casino, "that was the last time street guys ever got their hands on anything that f--king valuable again."

Corbyn lost because he is an old school Marxist leftist that didn’t have any innovative ideas to solve the challenges of 21st century globalization.

Older voters weren’t going to vote for him because they remember the Keynesianism & nationalization disasters of the 70’s.

The white working class weren’t going to vote for him because they tend to be patriotic and weren’t going to support someone whose a sympathizer of the IRA and Hezbolla.

Finally, the new diverse coalition of young voters which represent multicultural Britain weren’t going to vote for him, because he wasn’t really pro brexit, because he’s such an old school fuddy duddy Marxist isolationist.

[babyblob]

i have gone through a flood of emotions both good and bad these last few months. Right now I am riding a wave of pure joy that not even my aunt can ruin.

I have neve seen anything like these crowds. Makes me feel like something special is happening.

One thing I love is the fact that Trump protesters and crowds are getting smaller as the night goes on while the Biden crowds are getting larger by the second. This is such a great moment

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Agreed, the center left wins elections, but they don’t always produce the best outcomes in the long term.

Let's not make any grand theories about "the center left" and so on. In practise, designations like that don't mean anything.

Let’s remember though that Bill Clinton was further to the right than any modern democrat, because he had to broker deals with a Republican controlled senate,

Bill Clinton campaigned further to the right and insisted the party move to the right. It wasn't the Republican controlled senate making him doing that. That was him. You want to know what Bill's campaign slogan was in '92, "Make America Great Again" yeah look it up. It did seem that Bill wanted to start from the right and move left as his Presidency went along, but his campaign was centrist from the get-go. Obama by contrast even in 2008 didn't have such a centrist campaign even if on some issues HRC was more progressive economically than him.

...and had to bring the Democratic Party out the wilderness, because the electorate continually rejected big government tax and spend democrats.

That kind of "Grand Narrative" i.e. he had to do this and so on, is a morality play that clogs up actual political thinking and analysis. It's not a given that he had to do that.

Remember Bill Clinton never won a majority of the popular vote in either 1992 or 1996. He won a plurality both times. It's not at all certain that Clinton's centrist push actually did pull Dems out of the wilderness.

Corbyn lost because he is an old school Marxist leftist that didn’t have any innovative ideas to solve the challenges of 21st century globalization.

Have you read his platform? That was pretty much filled with nothing but ideas to solve the challenges of 21st Century globalization.

This idea of Corbyn is based on American perceptions and projections but that's not the case of the guy and the reasons why he lost. As for his foreign policy issues, I don't think those were inherently insurmountable given the gaffes that Boris Johnson got away with.

Older voters weren’t going to vote for him because they remember the Keynesianism & nationalization disasters of the 70’s.

Not what happened at all. And England is still largely Keynesian as in fact is many economies around the world. Just only partially so.

[Powerboy]

Alright, guys, I'm too foggy brained from my celebratory wine. Pretty much the only right-leaning friend I have left just told me (in regards to all the news outlets proclaiming Biden's victory) that I'm not entitled to my own facts.

Gimme something to roast him with, please and thank you!

Tell him an accusation of making up facts is rich coming from a Republican. Or just, "That's what you are but what am I?"

[KCJ506]

"I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...418%3Fpage%3D7

[wjowski]

Just say Trump One-Term Loser, the Republican Jimmy Carter, that will be enough.

Carter deserves better than that

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Carter deserves better than that

Jimmy Carter post-Presidency has become a mensch but as a President he betrayed the New Deal legacy, failed to pass stuff he could have passed, and actually did set into motion some of the stuff that took off under Reagan.

I agree he deserves better but let's not get overboard and make a hero out of him either.

[babyblob]

One thing does kind of bug me. I know everyone is happy. But there is a deadly virus going on. And it looks bad to be gathering in large crowds like this after saying the crowds on election day would be too big and dangerous. Or that you cant have more then 25 percent of people in bars. it is going to make it harder to have shutdowns or restrictions if that is need if things get worse. And I know there is masks on most of the people. But there will be Covid cases to come from this.

I can save this for another day but you cant say that some large crowds are okay but not others.

[The no face guy]

Let's not make any grand theories about "the center left" and so on. In practise, designations like that don't mean anything.



Bill Clinton campaigned further to the right and insisted the party move to the right. It wasn't the Republican controlled senate making him doing that. That was him. You want to know what Bill's campaign slogan was in '92, "Make America Great Again" yeah look it up. It did seem that Bill wanted to start from the right and move left as his Presidency went along, but his campaign was centrist from the get-go. Obama by contrast even in 2008 didn't have a centrist campaign even if on some issues HRC was more progressive economically than him.



That kind of "Grand Narrative" i.e. he had to do this and so on, is a morality play that clogs up actual political thinking and analysis. It's not a given that he had to do that.

Remember Bill Clinton never won a majority of the popular vote in either 1992 or 1996. He won a plurality both times. It's not at all certain that Clinton's centrist push actually did pull Dems out of the wilderness.



Have you read his platform? That was pretty much filled with nothing but ideas to solve the challenges of 21st Century globalization.

This idea of Corbyn is based on American perceptions and projections but that's not the case of the guy and the reasons why he lost. As for his foreign policy issues, I don't think those were inherently insurmountable given the gaffes that Boris Johnson got away with.



Not what happened at all. And England is still largely Keynesian as in fact is many economies around the world. Just only partially so.

Well we can argue back and forth about the Clinton/Blair years, at the end of the day, before they came along the left kept continually losing to Thatcher/Raegan and conservatives in general...

because the old statist left was dead, no one wanted to vote for them, the third way brought a renewal to the left that allowed it to dominate the 90's.

As inequality increases as a result of globalization, we will most likely see a more statist left, but the left that wins in the UK, will be the one that fires up Britain's young anti brexit coalition, Corbynism is dead.