All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Well we can argue back and forth about the Clinton/Blair years, at the end of the day, before they came along the left kept continually losing to Thatcher/Raegan and conservatives in general...

What they did was keep telling themselves they were losing and internalized conservative narratives about them rather than having a square level-headed look at reality. They made morality plays and substituted that for reality. That's a real disease of the left in general, across the world. Whether on the moderate or the extreme left side. So because the Dems didn't get a supermajority in the Senate and House races, it somehow means that the Democrat party is on the decline, or that they weren't radical enough and so on. That's a morality play.

Here's the thing, when the right wing loses or gets a setback, they don't get into circular death matches and start beating their chest or talk about going to the center, they simply try harder next time but don't change significantly. That's something to look at because that goes against the idea that you have to somehow accept an election defeat means an idea is defeated at the ballot and discredited.

the third way brought a renewal to the left that allowed it to dominate the 90's.

And what did they do in the '90s of major significance? What major legislative achievement and institutional innovation has Bill Clinton and Tony Blair have to their credit?

Winning an election is hard but ultimately it's just Step 1 of a plan. Clinton and Blair winning elections doesn't validate their style of government or legacy or the actual choices they made to get there.It doesn't mean that Clinton and Blair made the right choices in the 90s and somehow that they're an example to follow/emulate in the 2020s.

[numberthirty]

Jimmy Carter post-Presidency has become a mensch but as a President he betrayed the New Deal legacy, failed to pass stuff he could have passed, and actually did set into motion some of the stuff that took off under Reagan.

I agree he deserves better but let's not get overboard and make a hero out of him either.

Which has been almost exactly what has been happening with Obama/Biden.

[Tami]

Meet the contenders for Biden’s Cabinet

The Biden transition team has been vetting potential candidates for months and will present the president-elect with potential choices in the coming days. Biden is expected to focus first on posts involving public health and the economy, including the secretaries of the Treasury and Health and Human Services, along with West Wing personnel. The former vice president intends to be deliberative and is not likely to announce Cabinet nominations in the first week, according to an official close to the Biden team.

The president-elect will face incoming on several fronts, including from Democrats who expect him to nominate the most diverse Cabinet in history. That goal is not always compatible with the push from the party's vocal left wing to nominate the most progressive Cabinet since Franklin D. Roosevelt.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Which has been almost exactly what has been happening with Obama/Biden.

Obama's Presidency is genuinely better than Carter's and his overall political impact and legacy has been heroic compared to his. Not sure how you can argue against that?

Biden's presidential win is historic as opposed to a dude who barely eked a majority ahead of an unelected VP who pardoned Nixon.

I honestly don't understand why you hate Obama. It's weird.

[numberthirty]

In Greece, under SYRIZA, a left-wing party, they ran a refugee camp in Moira very much in the spirit of Obama's immigration issues (https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...lure/601132/0/). Is SYRIZA not a left wing party anymore? It was once the big hope of the left for a while.

Any politician who takes office tends to get blood on their hands and do horrible stuff here and there, and you should condemn it of course, but that doesn't mean the platform and policies are suddenly not left-wing anymore. The politics of purity aren't favorable to everyone. Bernie Sanders for instance supported crime bills in the 90s (https://www.vox.com/2016/2/26/111164...-incarceration) that everyone wants to hang around Biden's neck but gives him a pass for. Sanders is also quite pro-gun because Vermonters like guns.

Let's not get into this kind of childishness. Obama took the Democrats left of Bill Clinton, if you want to challenge this, offer up some evidence. Or if you think Bill Clinton is somehow the hope of the left, tell me.

...

- Folding On The Public Option.
- Making Absolutely Sure No One Who Totaled The Economy Did Prison Time.
- Folding On Actually Getting Card Check Done.

It was just more of "Business As Usual..." with a side of murdering American citizens without a trial/The Patriot Act/ramping up deportation/ramping up drone strikes.

[BeastieRunner]

Carter deserves better than that

Trump will never, ever, ever have a post-Presidency like Carter.

OR even H.W. Bush.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

One thing does kind of bug me. I know everyone is happy. But there is a deadly virus going on. And it looks bad to be gathering in large crowds like this after saying the crowds on election day would be too big and dangerous. Or that you cant have more then 25 percent of people in bars. it is going to make it harder to have shutdowns or restrictions if that is need if things get worse. And I know there is masks on most of the people. But there will be Covid cases to come from this.

I can save this for another day but you cant say that some large crowds are okay but not others.

Oh there's 100% going to be a fucking disaster after this.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

Answer the actual question, politely.

" Obama took the Democrats left of Bill Clinton, if you want to challenge this, offer up some evidence. Or if you think Bill Clinton is somehow the hope of the left, tell me."

Obama took the Dems left-of Clinton, that's the solid assessment and observation of most watchers. It's not left-wing per a certain platonic idea. It's not left-wing compared to Bernie...it's left-wing compared to Bill Clinton and overall policy impact.

[Tami]

Jimmy Carter post-Presidency has become a mensch but as a President he betrayed the New Deal legacy, failed to pass stuff he could have passed, and actually did set into motion some of the stuff that took off under Reagan.

I agree he deserves better but let's not get overboard and make a hero out of him either.

Carter may not have been a good President [though I do believe his heart was in the right place], but since then he has been a great human being.

In no way does he compare to Trump.

[numberthirty]

Answer the actual question, politely.

" Obama took the Democrats left of Bill Clinton, if you want to challenge this, offer up some evidence. Or if you think Bill Clinton is somehow the hope of the left, tell me."

Obama took the Dems left-of Clinton, that's the solid assessment and observation of most watchers. It's not left-wing per a certain platonic idea. It's not left-wing compared to Bernie...it's left-wing compared to Bill Clinton and overall policy impact.

I just did.

A lot of people buy into a lot of straight up garbage when it comes to former President Obama.

No matter what the issues were when it came to Clinton(and they were legion...), he never...

- Was Actually In A Realistic Position To Push The Public Option, And Folded.
- Was Never In A Realistic Position To Get Card Check Done, And Folded.
- Let People Who Had Just Totaled An Economy Walk With Zero Prison Time.

You are absolutely not to the guy's left if that was what you actually did. You were just a slightly different shade of blue.

[numberthirty]

Carter may not have been a good President [though I do believe his heart was in the right place], but since then he has been a great human being.

In no way does he compare to Trump.

Politely, this is more nonsense that folks have been sold.

I'll get into the reasons why once I have a bit of time tonight.

[Jack Dracula]

Totally take the day off, ya know. 100%. But... tomorrow, right back into it. Bang the drum on that Georgia runoff.

Copy that.

[The no face guy]

What they did was keep telling themselves they were losing and internalized conservative narratives about them rather than having a square level-headed look at reality. They made morality plays and substituted that for reality. That's a real disease of the left in general, across the world. Whether on the moderate or the extreme left side. So because the Dems didn't get a supermajority in the Senate and House races, it somehow means that the Democrat party is on the decline, or that they weren't radical enough and so on. That's a morality play.

Here's the thing, when the right wing loses or gets a setback, they don't get into circular death matches and start beating their chest or talk about going to the center, they simply try harder next time but don't change significantly. That's something to look at because that goes against the idea that you have to somehow accept an election defeat means an idea is defeated at the ballot and discredited.

The United States is a center right nation because of laws that were designed to equalize regional disparities in power, which of consequence, favours conservatism.

1. Equal senators for each state. (This holds the general population captive to the most regressive backward thinking States. (The people of Idaho are good honest people, but rural areas are conservative, and aren't usually forward thinking)
2. The electoral college vote (Allows parties to obtain a majority without the popular support of the most populous urban areas)
3. Two term limit (Stops popular charismatic leaders like Obama & Clinton from running again, elimination of this rule would favour democrats) this of course is different than the two above.

If the Republican Party is smart they will incorporate some of Trump's ideas, moderate them and move back to the center, because the center is where elections are won and lost. You may win one or two elections by mobilizing the hardcore base, but overall it's an election loser, which is why Trump is out of power.

And what did they do in the '90s of major significance? What major legislative achievement and institutional innovation has Bill Clinton and Tony Blair have to their credit?

Winning an election is hard but ultimately it's just Step 1 of a plan. Clinton and Blair winning elections doesn't validate their style of government or legacy or the actual choices they made to get there.It doesn't mean that Clinton and Blair made the right choices in the 90s and somehow that they're an example to follow/emulate in the 2020s.

They passed various bills that helped with education, poverty and other progressive legislation, because when your in power you get to do meaningful things, when your out of power, you just get to sit on the opposition benches.

If your looking for some great big progressive change in your lifetime pick an issue like low tuition that could benefit you directly, and lobby for it, because progressive change tends to be slow and gradual, unless cataclysmic events occur.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Today history has been made.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

A lot of people buy into a lot of straight up garbage when it comes to former President Obama.

Projection is a hell of a thing.