All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Robotman]

BREAKING: White House tells federal agencies to proceed with plans for Trump’s February budget in latest sign of election defiance @JStein_WaPo @ericawerner @jdawsey1

Ugh.

Adding Pompeo’s ridiculous statement today about them getting preparing for Trump’s second term, it’s seeming more likely that the secret service will have to physically escort these morons from the premises on January 20th.

[Ragged Maw]

Small question: Is Trump currently in good standing with or popular among any branch of the U.S. Military?

[DrNewGod]

Small question: Is Trump currently in good standing with or popular among any branch of the U.S. Military?

Pockets thereof, certainly. With the military leadership as a whole, probably not.

[BeastieRunner]

Adding Pompeo’s ridiculous statement today about them getting preparing for Trump’s second term, it’s seeming more likely that the secret service will have to physically escort these morons from the premises on January 20th.

The SS will transfer to Biden after the DEC 14 EC vote unless he concedes before then. 45 will have to vacate sooner than 1/20/21. There will be no public humiliation of Trump in that regard.

I think we've covered that in this thread numerous times.

Trump is not going to be dragged out or spend the rest of his life in jail.

[BeastieRunner]

Small question: Is Trump currently in good standing with or popular among any branch of the U.S. Military?

He's the most unpopular POTUS with active duty troops on record. His veteran record is also the lowest for a R but over 50%.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/p...ote-for-biden/
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ts-troops.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-t...s-show-2020-10

Current early voting, exit polls, and early demo data are reflecting these surveys very accurately, 45 is averaging less than 40% of active duty votes and roughly 51% of the veteran vote.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Adding Pompeo’s ridiculous statement today about them getting preparing for Trump’s second term, it’s seeming more likely that the secret service will have to physically escort these morons from the premises on January 20th.

I think trump being escorted out of the White House is the perfect humiliation to end his presidency.

[DrNewGod]

I think trump being escorted out of the White House is the perfect humiliation to end his presidency.

I wouldn't care if it's done to the man. I wouldn't want the disgrace of the image to become part of the heritage of the presidency. Maybe, in the long run, we need such a historical lesson on the books. I'd still hate to see it, and in the short run, I don't want to see that kind of gasoline poured into the dumpster fire that is his following.

[Bruce Wayne]

This was basically what played out in the 80s when Japan's economy looked like it was ready to rival the US for global dominance, we simply gave them a gentle reminder that we still had troops based on their soil and forced them to sign the Plaza Accords which effectively burst their bubble and started them on a path of economic stagnation that they have yet to break out of.

You kind of ignore that the UK/France/Germany all signed the Plaza Accords with good reason: the global economy was much more oriented around USA back then thus it was too big to fail in their eyes. This is especially important for Japan given its export oriented economy and the fact that the USA was the largest national market for these exports. This also kind of blames the speculative bubbles on one the thing: Plaza Accords and ignores all the other things like the low interest rates set by the BoJ, the increase in government spending and the overall law of diminishing returns in investment that fueled the bubble economy.

After all, the fact that all the nuclear diplomacy on the peninsula was between Kim Jong Un and Trump, NOT with the President of South Korea, tells you everything you need to know about who calls the shots there.

And that ignore what drives North Korea. What North Korea fears is not a resurgent South Korea that wants to conquer the North (the South doesn't want the headache), it's problem is with the US military and the threat of further US military/economic actions as well as US desires for regime change (remember they were on Bush's Axis of Evil). The negotiations between the US and North Korea had ramifications beyond the Korean Peninsula given that the regime has the technology to construct ICBMs.

The problem with these two arguments is that they largely ignore the agency of these countries like North Korea and Japan and portray everything as strings being pulled by Americans. It's much more complicated than that.

[BeastieRunner]

Legal Eagle with an overview of the Trump suits and what has been thrown out and what has merit:

[PwrdOn]

You kind of ignore that the UK/France/Germany all signed the Plaza Accords with good reason: the global economy was much more oriented around USA back then thus it was too big to fail in their eyes. This is especially important for Japan given its export oriented economy and the fact that the USA was the largest national market for these exports. This also kind of blames the speculative bubbles on one the thing: Plaza Accords and ignores all the other things like the low interest rates set by the BoJ, the increase in government spending and the overall law of diminishing returns in investment that fueled the bubble economy.



And that ignore what drives North Korea. What North Korea fears is not a resurgent South Korea that wants to conquer the North (the South doesn't want the headache), it's problem is with the US military and the threat of further US military/economic actions as well as US desires for regime change (remember they were on Bush's Axis of Evil). The negotiations between the US and North Korea had ramifications beyond the Korean Peninsula given that the regime has the technology to construct ICBMs.

The problem with these two arguments is that they largely ignore the agency of these countries like North Korea and Japan and portray everything as strings being pulled by Americans. It's much more complicated than that.

It's true that Japan's economy likely destined to tank eventually with or without any external intervention, but nobody then or now would argue that the Plaza Accord helped to stabilize Japan's economy in any way or that they would have ever chosen to sign the agreement in the absence of external pressure. And yeah, Japan hasn't been totally ruined by it, because even if they are facing troubling trends, they are still a relatively high income country that maintains a decent level of soft power through their cultural exports, but both they and South Korea can only direct their own foreign policy to the extent that it doesn't conflict with US interests at all, because if they ever try anything we have ways of bringing them back in line.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The problem with these two arguments is that they largely ignore the agency of these countries like North Korea and Japan and portray everything as strings being pulled by Americans. It's much more complicated than that.

Put it better than me.

Don't get me wrong, imperialism whether by America, China, Russia or whatever is wrong and should be opposed. US Imperialism has hurt Democracy abroad, and Democracy at home.

North Korea's regime is to be condemned, but so is Saudi Arabia, US' biggest ally in the Middle East. Whatever problems these countries have, and there are many, USA can't solve it.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Nearly 80% of Americans say Biden won White House, ignoring Trump's refusal to concede: Reuters/Ipsos poll

[PwrdOn]

Put it better than me.

Don't get me wrong, imperialism whether by America, China, Russia or whatever is wrong and should be opposed. US Imperialism has hurt Democracy abroad, and Democracy at home.

North Korea's regime is to be condemned, but so is Saudi Arabia, US' biggest ally in the Middle East. Whatever problems these countries have, and there are many, USA can't solve it.

Imperialism is the only reason that the USA even exists, and if we were to swear off forceful interventions tomorrow, our entire socioeconomic system would collapse with no chance of ever recovering. Our only hope is to gradually wean ourselves off of the coercive and extractive pattern of international relations while building up a sustainable welfare state at home, just like the European powers did. But this will be a rather difficult and painful process, especially because while Europe had a friendly power in the US to take over the role of global hegemon, the only candidates to replace the US are decidedly unfriendly towards us and would not be willing to cover our retreat the same way we did for Britain and France. So we better start laying the groundwork for that now, rather than expecting as some do that we can just bully and bomb our way to another American century.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Imperialism is the only reason that the USA even exists, and if we were to swear off forceful interventions tomorrow, our entire socioeconomic system would collapse with no chance of ever recovering.

That's ridiculous. Imperialism has hurt America's democratic institutions at home, and it's hurt its economics and society. We do not need to be imperialistic. America would be a far better, safer, democratic nation. It would not fall apart at all. This is a nihilistic thought process.

A good example of how Imperialism hurt America is the Vietnam War. That was originated by Eisenhower but expanded significantly under JFK and LBJ. Both of them justified the Vietnam War thinking that bombing a few peasant villages would be justified if they helped pass Civil Rights at home, and if they built the Great Society. Guess what, the war drained the economy and took focus from the Great Society. It was a deal with the devil both Presidents signed, and they compromised and betrayed their own ambitions with that hawkishness.

Our only hope is to gradually wean ourselves off of the coercive and extractive pattern of international relations while building up a sustainable welfare state at home, just like the European powers did.

1) The European powers did not "gradually wean [itself] off of the coercie and extractive pattern of international relations" they fought tooth and nail to hold on to Imperialist domains. World War 1 was about Imperialism, the French Government continued wars in Algeria and Vietnam in the '50s, the British during Churchill's second administration perpetrated actions in Kenya (including torture of Obama's grandfather). The European powers were thrown out of their former colonies whether in Ireland, India, Egypt, Vietnam, Algeria, Kenya.

2) "The sustainable welfare state at home" was never dependent on imperialist gains. And even the question of "sustainable" is dubious. After all a good part of the Postwar Welfare State built by Labour was halted and overturned by, first Margaret Thatcher, second Tony Blair. The NHS still endures of course (though Brexit and an incipient US trade deal, means it's going to become a casualty to some extent eventually) but a lot of the rest was overturned. Neoliberalism and privatization has certainly reversed social welfare in Europe, not to the same extent as USA of course but significantly.

[PwrdOn]

That's ridiculous. Imperialism has hurt America's democratic institutions at home, and it's hurt its economics and society. We do not need to be imperialistic. America would be a far better, safer, democratic nation. It would not fall apart at all. This is a nihilistic thought process.

A good example of how Imperialism hurt America is the Vietnam War. That was originated by Eisenhower but expanded significantly under JFK and LBJ. Both of them justified the Vietnam War thinking that bombing a few peasant villages would be justified if they helped pass Civil Rights at home, and if they built the Great Society. Guess what, the war drained the economy and took focus from the Great Society. It was a deal with the devil both Presidents signed, and they compromised and betrayed their own ambitions with that hawkishness.



1) The European powers did not "gradually wean [itself] off of the coercie and extractive pattern of international relations" they fought tooth and nail to hold on to Imperialist domains. World War 1 was about Imperialism, the French Government continued wars in Algeria and Vietnam in the '50s, the British during Churchill's second administration perpetrated actions in Kenya (including torture of Obama's grandfather). The European powers were thrown out of their former colonies whether in Ireland, India, Egypt, Vietnam, Algeria, Kenya.

2) "The sustainable welfare state at home" was never dependent on imperialist gains. And even the question of "sustainable" is dubious. After all a good part of the Postwar Welfare State built by Labour was halted and overturned by, first Margaret Thatcher, second Tony Blair. The NHS still endures of course (though Brexit and an incipient US trade deal, means it's going to become a casualty to some extent eventually) but a lot of the rest was overturned. Neoliberalism and privatization has certainly reversed social welfare in Europe, not to the same extent as USA of course but significantly.

Remember that US imperialism largely doesn't involve actually conquering and ruling overseas territories directly, though we still have a couple of those also. Instead, it largely involves using economic and diplomatic coercion to force countries to sign unfavorable trade deals that usually involve them opening up their markets to American companies, and if that doesn't work, instigating a coup to put a more friendly regime in place that will accede to our demands, and if THAT doesn't work, sending in the troops in the name of humanitarian intervention. But unlike European empires, the end goal of all this is NOT to conquer territory or subjugate local populations, we learned from their example that this is usually a lot more trouble than it's worth and can be horrendously costly, but rather simply to promote American business interests overseas. So swearing off imperialism doesn't just mean not going to war anymore, it means not trying to apply our substantial leverage to gain concessions for American businesses, and not using our control of international institutions to threaten and sanction countries that don't want to be part of a US-led economic order, and if we were to tally up the effects of all of that, it would likely be debilitating to our competitiveness as an economy and significantly diminish the standard of living we'd enjoy back home. And that's not even considering what would happen if we were somehow forced to atone for the negative impacts of our historical misdeeds, what do you think would happen if we had to start paying out reparations or even giving back stolen land?