All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Tami]

There is something to be said about the influence adults, family, and community have on a person growing up. My question is, did the punishment fit the crime?

Children and teenagers may be brought up to think that a word is just that, a word, and that it has no more meaning than any other word. Or they may understand the meaning of the word but have not been given the context to understand why it was wrong.

Saying a word that they weren't supposed to say once, is that enough justification to punish? Wouldn't education have been better? Teaching children and teenagers why some words hold meansing far beyond what they were told they do.

This kind of punishment is going to leave a lasting scar, one that might only make the problem worse. Might lead them to believe that non-whites are out to get them, to feel threatened or put upon or have anger that builds up inside until one day it cerupts like Mount Vesuvius.

There are some who are unteachable, the ones who grow up to be like Stephen Miller, or join the Proud Boys, or White Militia, and so on.

Then there are those who are teachable, who make mistakes and learn from those mistakes and change.

I'm not talking about rewarding them for doing the wring thing, only that if they are to be punished for it, it should be done as a teaching moment. And it should have been done by adults, not fellow classmates over the internet.

[Kirby101]

The people making the phone calls to demand the university rescind admission would generally be to the left.

Maybe they were black? Do you think they have a right to be offended then?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Giving "teenagers who say something stupid (hate speech)" chances to succeed they don't deserve is how we got Stephen Miller.

So this episode of the New York Times' editorial page is brought to us by the letters "G, T, F, and O".

Gatsby Leo Toast.jpg

Why do you think she doesn't deserve this chance to succeed?

Because she tried to performatively pretend she was someone she wasn't. She didn't own up to what she did when it was called out the first time when she was in college. And then when the Floyd incident broke out, rather than keep quiet and out of sight, she tried to join in hypocritically hoping to sand off her rough edges.

Not a religious dude, but I always did like the parable of "Lazarus and Dives" aka the one about a guy asking for a second chance after he wasted his entire life passing countless chances to make up and do good.

[Adam Allen]

Why do you think she doesn't deserve this chance to succeed?

And what line should we draw? Should a kid who says something objectionable about religious believers be ineligible for college? How about socialist students who may upset important donors? Any male student who ever used a slur against women?

The people making the phone calls to demand the university rescind admission would generally be to the left.

Right-wingers do sometimes do that, but it tends to be in bad faith. When that occurs, it should be opposed.

The alternative to it being stupid is it being rational and intelligent.

As for whether it counts as hate speech is more complex. In the language, it's often just another way to say "person."

See, no offense, but if anything you should blame yourself for her being kicked out of that school.

It's not just another way to say "person", it is definitely a slur, no one should ever say it. The end. Any time you profess any other opinion, you are doing a disservice to any impressionable person who might be influenced by that very flawed perspective.

You know it's not "just another way to say person", which is why you yourself aren't just going around using it in place of the word person. And again, you're not helping the situation at all to put that idea out there in any context.

[Tami]

Gatsby Leo Toast.jpg



Because she tried to performatively pretend she was someone she wasn't. She didn't own up to what she did when it was called out the first time when she was in college. And then when the Floyd incident broke out, rather than keep quiet and out of sight, she tried to join in hypocritically hoping to sand off her rough edges.

Not a religious dude, but I always did like the parable of "Lazarus and Dives" aka the one about a guy asking for a second chance after he wasted his entire life passing countless chances to make up and do good.

From the NYT article

One of Ms. Groves’s friends, who is Black, said Ms. Groves had personally apologized for the video long before it went viral. Once it did in June, the friend defended Ms. Groves online, prompting criticism from strangers and fellow students. “We’re supposed to educate people,” she wrote in a Snapchat post, “not ruin their lives all because you want to feel a sense of empowerment.”

Also from the NYT article

Shortly after his 18th birthday in July, Mr. Galligan asked his father, a former law enforcement officer, what he thought about white privilege. “The first thing he said to me is that it doesn’t exist,” Mr. Galligan recalled. He then asked his father if he had ever been scared while walking at night, or while reaching into the glove box after getting pulled over by the police.

He said his father had not.

“That is your white privilege,” Mr. Galligan said he told him.

This where each one's mind sets were.

At the time Galligan received the video, he could have spoken to Groves about it. They could have talked it out. I didn't see anything to suggest he tried to do that.

[PaulBullion]

Why do you think she doesn't deserve this chance to succeed?

And what line should we draw? Should a kid who says something objectionable about religious believers be ineligible for college? How about socialist students who may upset important donors? Any male student who ever used a slur against women?

The people making the phone calls to demand the university rescind admission would generally be to the left.

Right-wingers do sometimes do that, but it tends to be in bad faith. When that occurs, it should be opposed.

The alternative to it being stupid is it being rational and intelligent.

As for whether it counts as hate speech is more complex. In the language, it's often just another way to say "person."

Highly educated people can be racist.

You're missing the point by so much, you're basically in a different time zone from the point.

[worstblogever]

Why do you think she doesn't deserve this chance to succeed?

No. Nobody "deserves" anything outside of basic human rights. Especially not someone who isn't prepared to face the ramifications of hate speech.

Because white entitlement is all about thinking we "deserve" something, regardless of if we've done someting that should disqualify us.

Not surprised you fail to understand that. And defend it, especially given, again, the example of Stephen Miller. Who when mentioned, you never fail to rush to the defensive. For... some reason.

[Adam Allen]

There is something to be said about the influence adults, family, and community have on a person growing up. My question is, did the punishment fit the crime?

Children and teenagers may be brought up to think that a word is just that, a word, and that it has no more meaning than any other word. Or they may understand the meaning of the word but have not been given the context to understand why it was wrong.

Saying a word that they weren't supposed to say once, is that enough justification to punish? Wouldn't education have been better? Teaching children and teenagers why some words hold meansing far beyond what they were told they do.

This kind of punishment is going to leave a lasting scar, one that might only make the problem worse. Might lead them to believe that non-whites are out to get them, to feel threatened or put upon or have anger that builds up inside until one day it cerupts like Mount Vesuvius.

There are some who are unteachable, the ones who grow up to be like Stephen Miller, or join the Proud Boys, or White Militia, and so on.

Then there are those who are teachable, who make mistakes and learn from those mistakes and change.

I'm not talking about rewarding them for doing the wring thing, only that if they are to be punished for it, it should be done as a teaching moment. And it should have been done by adults, not fellow classmates over the internet.

So, as the article points out, even in the midst of all the people outraged and calling for the school to kick her out, she had at least the one black friend coming to her defense, and really imagine she was not the only one. This story is the first I've heard of this kid, and it's a piece that is largely sympathetic to her. And this is just a couple of months later, right? I have to imagine that, barring some surprise release of her in a Nazi costume or something, a good deal of reflection on the incident will be to consider how the controversy impacted her, and whether it was fair or good. It is not as if the coverage universally paints her as a villain and the other kid as a hero; far from it.

Besides which, what punishment is she receiving, exactly? So, she didn't get to say on the cheer team or stay in the first college she chose to attend out of high school. That switching schools bit is super mundane, and most people aren't ever college cheerleaders, anyway.

So what makes this a traumatic, life-scarring event, as opposed to a teachable moment? Shouldn't this unexpected hardship really just be an opportunity for her to learn and grow, and come out a better person for it? It's not like she's destitute and living in the gutter.

[mogwen]

One of Ms. Groves’s friends, who is Black, said Ms. Groves had personally apologized for the video long before it went viral. Once it did in June, the friend defended Ms. Groves online, prompting criticism from strangers and fellow students. “We’re supposed to educate people,” she wrote in a Snapchat post, “not ruin their lives all because you want to feel a sense of empowerment.”

I have real mixed feelings about this story. People can change, maybe she had changed and her posts about BLM were genuine. He waited two years before acting, that's not just giving a lesson to me, it's cold-hearted vengeance.
And in 2 long years people can change. If we no longer accept this possibility what are we?
And maybe her friend helped her change and become a better person.

[Powerboy]

The New York Times reports on a college admissions story that reveals a lot about the attitude on the left.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/26/u...tion=US%20News

A high school freshman girl said something stupid. A student pissed off about it holds it onto it until a moment in which he can inflict maximum damage.



And now she's no longer going to college.



This seems excessive, and inconsistent with the idea that we should generous about the mistakes made by children.

Jill Filipovic thinks it reflects poorly on modern culture, punishing children for the mistakes of adults in the name of progress.



Conservative writer Seth Mandel thinks the guy who waited to report the news is being blamed too much.

The thing I question here is the timing. Why post the thing about her saying the N word at a time when she has come out in favor of Black Lives Matter which would indicate a pretty drastic change of heart? It kind of falls into "When you were fourteen...". I'm going to hold onto it and, for revenge, use it at a time it makes the least sense to use it when her attitude has done a 180. Or maybe post a positive, impressed that a tragedy like this may have shocked her into changing her opinions.

I know people who are liberal on every issue and yet some of them still were defending Brett Kavanaugh if only in the sense of saying, "Good night, are we going to condemn people for anything they ever said or did in their entire lives, even if they were stupid kids, with no regard for who they later become and what they think later?" Apparently so.

[Powerboy]

The right accused a child who built a clock of being a bomb building terrorist because of his melanin content.

This old white guy loaded an RV up with explosives and detonated it, and it's somehow a question of what his intent was.

My understanding was that the kid who built the clock to look somewhat like a bomb was put up to it by adults specifically to generate a claim of racial or ethic bias and it was built specifically to be mistaken for a bomb.

That does not negate the second example where the intent was clear but just that the first incident was designed to create an incident when the reaction was reasonable and exactly what was intended.

[Powerboy]

I have real mixed feelings about this story. People can change, maybe she had changed and her posts about BLM were genuine. He waited two years before acting, that's not just giving a lesson to me, it's cold-hearted vengeance.
And in 2 long years people can change. If we no longer accept this possibility what are we?
And maybe her friend helped her change and become a better person.

Yes it does look like it's not gaining too much traction because her own actions and opinions now don't reflect what she is portrayed to be in the video. I think the guy probably has a lot of anger which I get and it doesn't matter to him that she's not who she was then.

[worstblogever]

My understanding was that the kid who built the clock to look somewhat like a bomb was put up to it by adults specifically to generate a claim of racial or ethic bias and it was built specifically to be mistaken for a bomb.

That does not negate the second example where the intent was clear but just that the first incident was designed to create an incident when the reaction was reasonable and exactly what was intended.

Your understanding of what happened to Ahmed Mohamed... I'll allow you to review the timeline.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2015/09/16/ahmed-mohamed/

[Tami]

So, as the article points out, even in the midst of all the people outraged and calling for the school to kick her out, she had at least the one black friend coming to her defense, and really imagine she was not the only one. This story is the first I've heard of this kid, and it's a piece that is largely sympathetic to her. And this is just a couple of months later, right? I have to imagine that, barring some surprise release of her in a Nazi costume or something, a good deal of reflection on the incident will be to consider how the controversy impacted her, and whether it was fair or good. It is not as if the coverage universally paints her as a villain and the other kid as a hero; far from it.

Besides which, what punishment is she receiving, exactly? So, she didn't get to say on the cheer team or stay in the first college she chose to attend out of high school. That switching schools bit is super mundane, and most people aren't ever college cheerleaders, anyway.

So what makes this a traumatic, life-scarring event, as opposed to a teachable moment? Shouldn't this unexpected hardship really just be an opportunity for her to learn and grow, and come out a better person for it? It's not like she's destitute and living in the gutter.

It may not end up that way for her, but for others it could be. My point being that situations like this don't need to happen, public shaming can be very traumatic, and there is enough blame to go around.

[PaulBullion]

I just checked, and it turns out I am all out of sympathy for people who, at some point in their life, got off on being racist.

There are enough other people to feel sympathy for.