1. #21556
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Imagine how stupid they'll feel in four years when America isn't the socialist dystopia they've been told to expect.
    Their GOP overlords tell them this would happen with Clinton and Obama and when it didn't happened after 16 years, they still believe in the socialist fearmongering the GOP spew.

  2. #21557
    I am invenitable Jack Dracula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Their GOP overlords tell them this would happen with Clinton and Obama and when it didn't happened after 16 years, they still believe in the socialist fearmongering the GOP spew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    They won't. It's always on its way. They also don't even know what socialism is, just that it's bad because they've been told it is bad. We are, after all, talking about a group of people who for all their waving the constitution around, do not understand the 1st amendment. Which, in case you're keeping track at home, is the first thing on it.
    Yeah, I can't disagree. Socialists are the modern-day Elders of Zion for the Republican base.
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    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    Yeah, I can't disagree. Socialists are the modern-day Elders of Zion for the Republican base.
    I wonder who is the biggest boggy man for the GOP right now. Socialists, BLM or Antifa?
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    This is pretty interesting. Forbes magazine is saying that they will pretend that any company that hires any WH Press Secretary in a job is dishonest.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/randall...h=2787f41c5710

    From Day One at the Trump White House, up has been down, yes has been no, failure has been success. Sean Spicer set the tone with the inauguration crowd size – the worst kind of whopper, as it demanded that people disbelieve their own eyes. The next day, Kellyanne Conway defended Spicer’s lie with a new term, “alternative facts.” Spicer’s successor, Sarah Huckabee Sanders lied at scale, from smearing those who accused Trump of sexual harassment to conjuring jobs statistics. Her successor, Stephanie Grisham, over the course of a year, never even held a press conference, though the BS continued unabated across friendly outlets. And finally, Kayleigh McEnany, Harvard Law graduate, a propaganda prodigy at 32 who makes smiling falsehood an art form. All of this magnified by journalists too often following an old playbook ill-prepared for an Orwellian communication era.

    As American democracy rebounds, we need to return to a standard of truth when it comes to how the government communicates with the governed. The easiest way to do that, from where I sit, is to create repercussions for those who don’t follow the civic norms. Trump’s lawyers lie gleefully to the press and public, but those lies, magically, almost never made it into briefs and arguments – contempt, perjury and disbarment keep the professional standards high.

    So what’s the parallel in the dark arts of communication? Simple: Don’t let the chronic liars cash in on their dishonesty. Press secretaries like Joe Lockhart, Ari Fleischer and Jay Carney, who left the White House with their reputations in various stages of intact, made millions taking their skills — and credibility — to corporate America. Trump’s liars don’t merit that same golden parachute. Let it be known to the business world: Hire any of Trump’s fellow fabulists above, and Forbes will assume that everything your company or firm talks about is a lie. We’re going to scrutinize, double-check, investigate with the same skepticism we’d approach a Trump tweet. Want to ensure the world’s biggest business media brand approaches you as a potential funnel of disinformation? Then hire away.

    This isn’t cancel culture, which is a societal blight. (There’s surely a nice living for each of these press secretaries on the true-believer circuit.) Nor is this politically motivated, as Forbes’ pro-entrepreneur, pro-growth worldview has generally placed it in the right-of-center camp over the past century — this standard needs to apply to liars from either party. It’s just a realization that, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, in a thriving democracy, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Our national reset starts there.
    Now that's the supervillain cool I have been expecting for some time. Forbes is not my favorite rag, but this is boss.

  5. #21560
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    Thirteen Charged in Federal Court Following Riot at the United States Capitol Approximately 40 charged in Superior Court

    Thirteen individuals have been charged with federal crimes. The defendants and charges are outlined below:

    1. Cleveland Meredith was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with making interstate threats to Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
    2. Richard Barnett, of Arkansas, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful entry; violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and theft of public money, property, or records. Barnett allegedly entered a restricted are of the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.
    3. Lonnie Coffman, of Alabama, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with possession of an unregistered firearm (destructive device) and carrying a pistol without a license. It is alleged that Coffman’s vehicle contained 11 explosive devices known as Molotov cocktails and firearms. It is further alleged he was in possession of two firearms. Coffman was arrested and is currently being held. His detention hearing is scheduled for Jan. 12, 2021.
    4. Mark Leffingwell, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; assault on a federal law enforcement officer; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. Leffingwell allegedly entered the Senate side of the Capitol and when stopped by law enforcement, struck an officer in the helmet and chest. Leffingwell is currently being held and has a detention hearing in district court today.
    5. Christopher Alberts, of Maryland, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with carrying or having readily accessible, on the grounds of the United States Capitol Building, a firearm and ammunition. Specifically a Taurus G2C, 9mm handgun and 9mm caliber ammunition. The defendant appeared in district court and was released. He has a preliminary hearing scheduled for Jan. 28, 2021.
    6. Joshua Pruitt, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority. The defendant appeared in district court and was released. He has a preliminary hearing scheduled for Jan. 28, 2021.
    7. Matthew Council, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds. Council allegedly unlawfully entered the Capitol building, and when stopped by law enforcement, he pushed the officer.
    8. Cindy Fitchett, of Virginia, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
    9. Michael Curzio, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
    10. Douglas Sweet, of Florida, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
    11. Bradley Ruskelas, of Illinois, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
    12. Terry Brown, of Pennsylvania, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.
    13. Thomas Gallagher was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; or knowingly, with intent to impede government business or official functions, engaging in disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; and violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds.

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  6. #21561
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    If you are trying to compare the challenges then yes you have to take into account the people who ran for president at the time. I dont know much about the other challenges so I will not comment on them other then I am pretty damn sure that no one who challenged or ran for office called for a coup.

    I dont know if his legal challenges would have panned out. But I know when Gore's legal options were over he did his duty and declared Bush the winner. He did not hold a fucking rally and tell his supporters to storm the government. That is what makes things different.

    But in the case of the challenge on the 6th the GOP was giving voice to out right lies and crazy conspiracy theories. They gave voice to this when it was known Trump and his lackeys were doing everything they could to cause violence among his supporters. They then made it worse but continuing to do so after a failed coup and a so called president who called these people special and he loved them. A man who refused to call out the guard to stop them and cheered them on. When this has happened you as a law maker and a human being stop supporting this man. Yet they doubled down on their support. In this case it is clear they do not give a damn about America or the office they took an oath to uphold and should immediately be removed from office.

    There is no way. no way to compare the challenges in any way shape or form. Trying to do so down plays the events of the 6th and the man who caused it to happen.

    And it is not just how they voted. It is them saying that impeachment is too far a step. It is defending the people who stormed the capital and making heroes of them. It is saying Trump did nothing wrong to begin with. I am not 100 percent on impeachment being an effective use of time right now. I think having a full investigation into what happened and who caused it and holding them legally responsible is better. but I will support it if it goes forward. The GOP is not willing to make any one responsible for this. Saying it was a protest, and saying it was Antifa etc... They should be removed from office the second they defend a coup.
    If we're taking into account the people who ran for President, that suggests the challenges are okay if you really like the nominee who lost, or if the losing nominee isn't pretending they actually won. That is a standard.

    I think you may be conflating everyone in the GOP, from commentators to elected officials, as speaking with one voice, when that's not the case. We can look at individuals who say something stupid and consider the potential penalties for that (IE- if a commentator called the rioters heroes, it might violate the standards of his employer.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There's no need to bring and defend Gore, or get into the nuances of objection of votes and what grounds are there and so on.

    What Mets is doing is moral equivocation. He refuses to identify and condemn the happenings by his party as exceptional in scale and scope and instead seeks to dodge and skirt this.

    Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley
    -- Cast doubts on a legitimate, free, and fair election with no amibiguity or small margin as to create reasonable doubts.
    -- Ted Cruz and Hawley incited and entertained a mob with false votes likening them to American Revolutionaries.
    -- Cruz/Hawley proceeded to object to the certification of votes made by states they do not represent (AZ) against the wishes of that state's senators and the Republican party of that state.
    -- Hawley pumped a fist at the crowd on the morning of the insurrection.
    -- They did fundraising activities during the siege.
    -- And even after that, after that, they still decided that they will object to the certification.

    Anyone who tries to equate this to 2000-01 or even 2016-17 is in complete bad faith.

    This is exceptional beyond all measure, actions condemned by the Republican party, with top donors and state officials in Missouri and Texas, as well as newspapers there calling for their resignation.
    With scale and scope, is the standard that it's okay when it's a handful of members of Congress, but not when it reaches a certain threshold?

    Some members of Congress objected about the 2016 election, which did come down to narrow margins in a few key states.

    Senator Barbara Boxer of California was objecting to certification of votes made by states she did not represent in 2004, as did many of the members of the House in 2000, 2004 and 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Mets keeps using the canard of Gore's legal strategy, instead of looking at the actual votes in Florida and who the people actually voted for. Florida was a clusterf**k, with badly designed ballots and too much deference given to GOP objectors. But if we look at the actual votes, the choice the people tried to make, Gore won by thousands.
    So to keep going back to Gore's legal strategy, which is bullshit too, because the Florida Supreme Court called for a total recount, and not to talk about all the legal votes is disingenuous in the least.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ctions2000.usa
    I've posted numerous links suggesting that the Florida election was close, but that by most standards, George W Bush did win.

    A Post report one year after the election suggests that Bush would have won according to the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-f7978cc25dfa/

    Do you think the badly designed ballots were relevant to what the courts should have said? Should they have declared that votes for Buchanan were probably votes for Gore, and swing the election to him that way?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    With scale and scope, is the standard that it's okay when it's a handful of members of Congress, but not when it reaches a certain threshold?
    YES. He finally gets it.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 01-09-2021 at 04:14 PM.

  8. #21563
    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Mets it is not okay when they contest an election and add to the lies that lead to a coup. You said that Howley and Cruz had no way of knowing what was going to happen. No one did you say. **** the only ones who seemed to think there would be no trouble was the Capital Hill Police and National guard which they will answer for. media was talking about the possibility of trouble, not on that scale sure but they talked about possible riots.

    If they wanted to start a conversation about the election and ask questions fine. Never mind the fact that this has been done for a couple months in both the media and courts. But you do not do it when a mob is down the street. You damn sure dont do it a half hour after they scrubbed blood off the floors and were stepping on broken glass.

    Trump has been saying for over a week that they were going to take back the government on the 6th. His supporters have been posting on Twitter and Facebook and other places they were going to take back the government, stop the count, storm the capital, load up on guns and ammo, the revolution begins on the 6th, I hope Pelosi catches one, etc.. How can two people one who is smart enough to get a book deal, the other who has rising to the rank of Senator, not be smart enough to see what was going to happen? How could they not see the damage they were doing? I dont like either man but they are not stupid people. They fact is they did know, they just did not care. In fact Howley cared so little that people were storming the capital and in the process of murdering a cop that he was fund raising. How do you excuse this?
    Last edited by babyblob; 01-09-2021 at 11:37 AM.
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    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    It wasn't just the butterfly ballot, it was the punch ballots.
    It was clear that the Florida voters wanted Gore.
    The research shows that 45,608 of the 56,000 ballot papers (87% of the total) contained votes for Mr Gore, compared with 17,098 containing votes for Mr Bush (33%). In 1,367 cases, voters punched every hole except that for Mr Bush.

    In cases where the voters cast invalid "overvotes" in the presidential election, but then cast valid votes in the US senate contest lower down on the same ballot, 70% voted Democrat, Mr Gore's party, and only 24% voted Republican.
    Bush lost the popular vote, and should have lost Florida and the Presidency. The Democrats had every right to be upset and try to challenge, yet Mets wants to "BOTH SIDES" this and compare 2000 to what Trump and the GOP is doing this year.

    No one is buying it.
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  10. #21565
    Ultimate Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I wonder who is the biggest boggy man for the GOP right now. Socialists, BLM or Antifa?
    George Soros. Watch his name come up again and again when right wing media types talk about who must be funding left wing protests.
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  11. #21566
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    Alleged Pelosi lectern thief, horned helmet-wearing suspect arrested in connection with Capitol riot



    Federal authorities say they've arrested two of the alleged Capitol rioters who went viral for their part in the siege of the building.

    Adam Johnson, 36, of Parrish, Florida, who was seen in a viral photograph carrying Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s lectern through the halls, is being held in Pinellas County Jail and pending charges after federal marshals picked him up Friday night, according to the United States Attorney’s Office of the District of Columbia.

    Johnson is allegedly the man in the photo taken during Wednesday's raid of the U.S. Capitol by Donald Trump's supporters where he is waving to the camera while holding the lectern in his right arm, according to investigators. Johnson, who was clean shaven in his mugshot, appeared in the photo with a beard and a wool hat with "Trump" written on the top.

    "On or about January 7, 2021, the lectern was found by a member of the Senate staff in the Red corridor of the Senate wing off the Rotunda in the Capitol building," the arrest warrant said. "According to the House of Representatives’ curator, the Speaker’s lectern has a market value of more than $1,000."

    The warrant cited reporting from the Sarasota Herald-Tribune which found Johnson's social media posts and reported he was in the Capitol during the siege.

    Johnson has been charged with "one count of knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; one count of theft of government property; and one count of violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds," according to the U.S. Attorney's office.

    No attorney information for Johnson was immediately available.

    The U.S. Attorney's office also arrested Jacob Anthony Chansley, a.k.a. "Jake Angeli," Saturday. Investigators said he was the man seen in viral photos of the siege dressed in horns, a bearskin headdress, red, white and blue face paint, shirtless, and tan pants and carrying a 6-foot spear with an American flag tied below the blade.


    Chansley made his way to the dais of the Senate chamber during the siege where he was photographed by other rioters, according to investigators.

    He was charged with "knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority, and with violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds," according to investigators. No attorney information was immediately available.

    The FBI said it is still searching for more suspects in Wednesday's incident, which left Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick and four others dead. Anyone with information is urged to contact the FBI tip line at 1-800-CALL-FBI.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 01-09-2021 at 11:46 AM.
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    There was this tweet by Alex Kaplan:
    https://twitter.com/AlKapDC/status/1347713838133731334

    In the past 48 hours:
    -Twitter banned QAnon accounts
    -Twitter banned Trump
    -Reddit banned r/donaldtrump
    -Reddit banned the head moderator of r/conspiracy
    -YouTube banned Steve Bannon's show
    -Discord banned TheDonald dot win's channel
    -Google banned Parler from its app store

    And now FORBES magazine has officially sanctioned a papal bull on any corporation or business that hires Trump Press Secretaries:

    Here's Actual Footage of Silicon Valley going after Trumpworld:

  13. #21568
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    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

    - Charles Schultz.

  14. #21569
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    While I support wholeheartedly the calls for that shameless whore, Ted Cruz, to resign, my inner pessimist already assumes he'll be the GOP Presidential candidate in 2024.

    On a lighter note, being a student of history, I tried to rack my brains for another instance of a militaristic action in the Americas playing out as half-assed and ridiculous as the Capitol riot did. All I came up with was when Captain Morgan held a war council for his captains in preparation for attacking Cartagena. While he and the captains were in discussion on his flagship, the crew were partying, and some drunken pirate accidentally ignited the ship's powder magazine. The resulting explosion destroyed the ship and killed half of Morgan's captains and over 200 crewmen.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  15. #21570
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Jack is right. i will not bring up Gore any more.

    I will ask this to clear any doubts in my mind.

    Do you Mets think that Trump needs to be put in jail for saying the past week and more that his people need to take the government back and then tells them to march on the capital? A march he said he would join them in btw then ran back to the White House. Do you think That Rudy needs to go to jail for saying to take the government back by trial by combat? Then these two men sat back and watched with glee as these people raid the capital and killed a police officer. Trump was cheering this. Then he said he loved them and called them special. Do you think they should be in jail for encouraging a coup?
    I'm not sure if Trump or Rudy should go to jail for this.

    Whatever standard you use has to take into account existing law, and apply to all political figures. If heated rhetoric is not allowed from Trump, than it's not allowed from Democratic candidates. If Trump is to be jailed because protesters rioted, Democratic officials can be held responsible if their protests go bad. The law should not make a distinction between what is acceptable rhetoric or behavior because of what side protesters are on.

    As I said to Kirby101, I think it's certainly possible that any trial will show further evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Are you going to insist that they or whoever else does it though?



    Whether there is "enough to convict" or if the bar is high enough, that's for the Judge to decide, that's also an issue for the Defense.

    You are not a paid member of Donald Trump's defense or a judge. You are a citizen.

    Are you as a citizen going to insist on accountability, and specifically calling your party to task?



    Okay, but do you, as a citizen -- not as a pundit (which you are not), not as a political strategist (which you are not), not as a campaigner or canvasser (which again you are not) -- do you as a citizen consent that Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley should resign.

    Do you agree that Mr. Cruz and Mr. Hawley should accept responsibility and set an example by resigning the way that Al Franken resigned after pressure from his fellow party members? The way John Conyers did?



    When people are arguing in good faith it's worth bringing up, not with someone so patently who isn't.
    In Congress I am represented by Chuck Schumer, Kirsten Gilibrand and Grace Meng. They'll likely vote against Trump in any impeachment. They'll probably call for an investigation which I do believe to be merited.

    While we're citizens, we should still consider the legal and political implications of what we're asking for. If you point out that I'm not a member of Trump's defense, you should also point out to Trump's critics that they are not members of the prosecution. That is a type of attitude which would limit political discussion significantly. Your question about calling for things as citizens also neglects that a big part of political discussions is figuring things out, rather than immediately jumping to conclusions.

    I would support it if Cruz and Hawley were to resign for being wrong and acting in bad faith. The same would apply to a lot of other legislators, but I'd be fine with many members of Congress resigning because they have failed to meet high standards. It's probably not going to happen, but it would be nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    YES. He finally gets it.
    If you notice, people here have articulated different distinctions. A flaw with the idea that the distinction is obvious is that your line in the sand (What Cruz and Hawley did was different from what earlier officials did because there were more officials on their side) was different from Kirby101's (that what Cruz and Hawley did was inexcusable because it was after the riot, when it was clear how some people would interpret their actions) which was different from babyblob's (the problem is that it ended up encouraging rioters.)
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 01-09-2021 at 04:14 PM.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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