All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Mister Mets]

They are terrorists, not protestors.



Making distinctions is indeed what law is about.

As I said before, you are not a lawyer or a judge. You are a citizen, and you should voice your opinion as a citizen rather than discourse on that which you clearly do not know.



Well per Electoral College rules, your vote doesn't in fact count.

Since you are a red voter in a heavily blue district and as a Republican want to prolong and maintain the Electoral College, then by the ideology that you yourself proclaim, you must accept that you have no say. You must keep quiet and bow down to the will of the majority in your district and the stated position of the representatives of your district, and let the business of government as defined by your representatives proceed without your input.

Should you wish to reform that set of circumstances, i.e. shift from EC to direct popular vote, I suggest you voice that. After all, the entire issue with Gore in 2000 and HRC in 2016 was that both candidates lost the popular vote but won the EC, which was unprecedented for any candidate of any party for more than a century, breaking the political and social norms of the nation. Had Biden lost the pop. vote in 2020 but won the EC, then and only then would your false analogy be comparable



Asking for justice and accountability is within the legal and political implications. Asking the officers of Congress to follow the constitutional procedures and maintain political norms to highlight and insulate the government from another breach of election norms is within the legal and political implications. You make it sound as if we are calling for summary executions or Revolutionary Tribunals. We are not doing any such thing.

Is accountability so foreign to you or unacceptable to you? Has hyperbole so twisted and tangled the conservative ideology that you cannot see people you disagree in the moderate light they appear?



As citizens, we are calling for Impeachment and Removal. As a citizen, we can ask our congressmen for that. Stuff about conviction or putting Trump in jail and so on...the actual legal stuff is separate from that.

The law distinguishes in many ways. It can distinguish a protest in which idiots storm the capitol in a protest in which people shout, march and go home. It should not treat a protest in favor of Democrats differently than a protest in favor of Republicans, or a protest in favor of abortion differently than a protest against police brutality. Suggesting that there should be legal distinctions between protests because of what side people are on is a bad idea. I'm a bit concerned that you feel otherwise.

I suppose that I could be very misinformed about the first amendment, and welcome evidence that the law intends to determine what is acceptable rhetoric or behavior because of what side someone is on, rather than value-neutral factors.

The idea that citizens should only discuss their professional area of expertise is a limiting one. I do think citizens can be informed enough about the law to discuss legal principles. This is going to be necessary when voting for people who are going to selecting judges, or be in positions of legal power (IE- elected prosecutors.)

This is a new standard that it was okay to challenge electoral college results if your side won a plurality vote, but lost the electoral college. It doesn't explain Democratic challenges in 2004, but it is a standard, albeit one that isn't based on existing law.

I am unaware of any ideology that supporters of the electoral college believe that voters in non-competitive states should have no say. I suspect you're aware that's a strawman.

My point about what citizens should ask for was in response to your view that citizens should not consider the law or political implications, when you wrote asking a view "as a citizen -- not as a pundit (which you are not), not as a political strategist (which you are not), not as a campaigner or canvasser (which again you are not.)" Your rhetoric encourages ignorance, which I don't think you want to do.

The moderate view I responded to was that two Senators should be tried for sedition.

I’d argue that it depends what you mean by “productive”. If you mean likely to change Mets in a fundamental way...then it’s unlikely to happen. (But let me be fair..I think most of us rarely change our “fundamental” opinions. Certainly include myself in that.)

But as opposed to that I think the way Mets argues is impressive in several ways. He’s invariably polite, never personalises issues, often quotes interesting facts (carefully selected admittedly) and palpably puts a lot of thought into his arguments.

Usually disagree with his views...but putting that aside...I’d say he’s the sort of guy that ought to succeed in politics, but seldom does.

Thanks.

Most of us are unlikely to change fundamentally because of any political discussion. My main reason for participating in this discussion is to learn and bounce back ideas. I sometimes wonder if the main way I end up persuading people is to radicalize them in the other direction, by causing them to examine views they hadn't considered.

To be fair, I suspect most people here will select the facts that bolster their side. That said, if something is selected, it is not intended to mislead.

Nobody could have known that people who said on social media that they would march on the Capitol would actually march on the Capitol.

I'm being pedantic here, but there's a middle ground between a claim that nobody predicted a march on the capitol (not my view) and that it is so obvious that senators should be criticized for not expecting it.

[Kirby101]

What all your talk of legal and "what could be done" proves is that we had to accept that Al Gore really won the election by every objective standard, but we had to accept the results because the process failed us.

Difference between being found not guilty and actually being innocent, there is a difference.

[Tami]

An Air Force Combat Veteran Breached the Senate

As insurrectionists stormed the U.S. Capitol this week, a few figures stood out. One man, clad in a combat helmet, body armor, and other tactical gear, was among the group that made it to the inner reaches of the building. Carrying zip-tie handcuffs, he was captured in photographs and videos on the Senate floor and with a group that descended on Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office suite. In a video shot by ITV News, he is seen standing against a wall adjacent to Pelosi’s office, his face covered by a bandana. At another point, he appears to exit the suite, face exposed, pushing his way through the crowds of demonstrators.

A day after the riots, John Scott-Railton, a senior researcher at Citizen Lab, at the University of Toronto’s Munk School, notified the F.B.I. that he suspected the man was retired Lieutenant Colonel Larry Rendall Brock, Jr., a Texas-based Air Force Academy graduate and combat veteran. Scott-Railton had been trying to identify various people involved in the attack. “I used a number of techniques to hone in on his identity, including facial recognition and image enhancement, as well as seeking contextual clues from his military paraphernalia,” Scott-Railton told me. Brock was wearing several patches on his combat helmet and body armor, including one bearing a yellow fleur de lis, the insignia of the 706th Fighter Squadron. He also wore several symbols suggesting that he lived in Texas, including a vinyl tag of the Texas flag overlaid on the skull logo of the Punisher, the Marvel comic-book character. The Punisher has been adopted by police and Army groups and, more recently, by white supremacists and followers of QAnon. Scott-Railton also found a recently deleted Twitter account associated with Brock, with a Crusader as its avatar. “All those things together, it’s like looking at a person’s C.V.,” Scott-Railton said.

[Amadeus Arkham]

BREAKING: WV Delegate Derrick Evans announces resignation from House of Delegates

Good riddance.

[babyblob]

You still haven't said who met the bare minimum standard of correctly identifying what would happen.

Maybe the dumbasses posting that they were going to storm the capital, maybe Trump who said they were talking back the government and cheered while these terrorists murdered a police officer, maybe Rudy who told people to engage in trial by combat to take back the government. You dont think these people met the bare minimum of identifying what would happen when they have planned and encouraged it?

And I am sure it will come out that that police were understaffed and the guard not turned out before hand on purpose. This is not a failure of the police not to be able to identify what was going to happen. it was a deliberate order to stand down. How long did it take to get approval for the guard. And it was pence that called them in. Not Trump who cheered these criminals on and told them he loved them.

[babyblob]

BREAKING: WV Delegate Derrick Evans announces resignation from House of Delegates

Good riddance.

I love how he takes full responsibility for his actions when just a day ago he said he was there as an independent media observer. Because you know Cnn cameramen and reporters were live streaming on facebook about how they were in the capital.

[Robotman]

An Air Force Combat Veteran Breached the Senate

He also wore several symbols suggesting that he lived in Texas, including a vinyl tag of the Texas flag overlaid on the skull logo of the Punisher, the Marvel comic-book character. The Punisher has been adopted by police and Army groups and, more recently, by white supremacists and followers of QAnon. Scott-Railton also found a recently deleted Twitter account associated with Brock, with a Crusader as its avatar. “All those things together, it’s like looking at a person’s C.V.,” Scott-Railton said.

Unfortunately that Punisher log has become toxic as f*ck. Disney either needs to do a massive clamp down or retire the character. Garth Ennis' run is one of my favorite comics but the character and logo are completely sullied now.

A Bleeding Cool article from today about the Punisher logo:

Did Marvel Cancel The Punisher Completely Without Telling Anyone?

Vanity Fair reported "This is fascism's visual trap, from the black, white, and red of the swastika to the death's head Punisher skull that's become a de facto symbol of Trumpism, worn by Sean Hannity on his lapel. A language of brute spectacle, hard to ignore. Look, and you're cursed by that which is ugly in the deepest sense; look away, and you neglect the threat at our door. Or rather, yesterday, inside the House."

Inverse stated that The Punisher now belongs to the Proud Boys and that "It's not up to me how Disney or Marvel pursues action, but there are examples of companies taking action. Fred Perry, the polo clothing company whose black and yellow-tipped shirts became a Proud Boys "uniform," ceased manufacturing and selling the shirt and released a statement condemning the Proud Boys' values."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The law distinguishes in many ways. It can distinguish a protest...

It's a terrorist attack. Not a protest.

Nobody here is saying the terrorist march is the same as the Tea Party protests. Ideologically and rhetorically it has similarities, but the Tea Party-ites didn't cross the line the way the capitol terrorists do.

According to your own principles, are the Capitol rioters and terrorists the same as the Tea Party protests? Do you morally and legally equate these two, the way you are rhetorically equating the BLM protests and the capitol terrorists?

It should not treat a protest in favor of Democrats differently than a protest in favor of Republicans,

It should not treat a terrorist attack in favor of Democrats differently than terrorist attacks in favor of Republicans. But it should treat a terrorist attack differently than a protest.

No one is saying that the Tea Party protests, which were obnoxious astroturfed events from the Obama years, but otherwise a legal protest is the same as the Capitol terrorist attack.

I'm a bit concerned that you feel otherwise.

Well, I am seriously horrified and disturbed, as well as profoundly disappointed that you cannot distinguish between a terrorist attack on the Nation's capitol to prevent the certification of an election, and a protest.

I have to ask, are the Tea Party protests equivalent to the terrorist attack? Legally, I would never call the Tea Party protests of that time terrorist attacks or equate them even with Charlottesville. Sure it was troubling and dog-whistle racist and yeag set the stage for what happened later...but I wouldn't equate those protests with what happened.

I am unaware of any ideology that supporters of the electoral college believe that voters in non-competitive states should have no say. I suspect you're aware that's a strawman.

Well you keep saying that winning the popular vote doesn't matter, you keep discounting my arguments that the Republican party is in deep trouble because it doesn't win popular votes anymore and is generally unpopular across the board? Events in Georgia last week have vindicated my views over yours about the weakness of the Republican party and the great trouble it's in, because it turns out that 2020 election was bad for the Republicans, actually. So yeah, by your own views, I have to say that as a red voter in a blue district who doesn't believe in popular representative government, that you should, for sake of consistency, shut up and accept the political hegemony of your district and your state. Or you can rethink your views.

[WAKANDA FOREVER!]

BREAKING: WV Delegate Derrick Evans announces resignation from House of Delegates

Good riddance.

Bizzounce!

[WAKANDA FOREVER!]

An Air Force Combat Veteran Breached the Senate

Zip tie guy#2. Twitter an' 'em also found Zip Tie Guy #1 Eric Munchel. He brought mom too.

[babyblob]

Zip tie guy#2. Twitter an' 'em also found Zip Tie Guy #1 Eric Munchel. He brought mom too.

The family that plans treason together stays together. Pretty sure I read that on a Hallmark Card.

[DrNewGod]

I hate that one of our saving graces was the sheer stupidity of Trump's people.

But for sheer stupidity, The Nazis would have conquered Britain by 1941 at the latest.

...If your argument is that Cruz and Hawley should have seen what was going to happen, who did? We can't expect them to be more prescient than everyone else...

Even assuming a disconnect between vitriolic social media rhetoric and will to action, the last couple of months in the upper Midwest should have given any reasonable soul a bit of the shakes: a capitol invasion, and even a conspiracy to kidnap Michigan's governor. Even if Hawley and Cruz didn't anticipate a terrorist assault, they had to know they were juggling nitroglycerine, and simply didn't care. Or more likely, they thought any consequences insignificant when weighed against their potential gain.

[Ragged Maw]

The law distinguishes in many ways. It can distinguish a protest in which idiots storm the capitol in a protest in which people shout, march and go home. It should not treat a protest in favor of Democrats differently than a protest in favor of Republicans, or a protest in favor of abortion differently than a protest against police brutality. Suggesting that there should be legal distinctions between protests because of what side people are on is a bad idea. I'm a bit concerned that you feel otherwise.

Thing is, when the whole clusterfuck started, I would've probably been mostly in your corner on the subject..........Then the news came in about the pipe bombs discovered on site. Quite the red flag, if you ask me.

[Kirby101]

Remember, Cruz and Hawley kept up the same rhetoric AFTER the attack. So talk of what they might have foreseen is obfuscation.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

BREAKING: WV Delegate Derrick Evans announces resignation from House of Delegates

Good riddance.

I love how he takes full responsibility for his actions when just a day ago he said he was there as an independent media observer. Because you know Cnn cameramen and reporters were live streaming on facebook about how they were in the capital.

He didn't even make it to get sworn in basically. There was talk he was gonna get booted right there had he not resigned.