All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[DrNewGod]

And I am saying they should resign for both before and after. Not playing your semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's about living by The Rule Of Law instead of claiming to whilst twisting law for convenience. In a democratic republic, hating someone doesn't entitle one to up the wattage on a sentence (and he deserves one) that the law specifies for a crime.

Honestly, I'd think the last five years would have taught us that words and labels DO matter.

[babyblob]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5319592

The only way Trump can excede this is if he nukes Iran or any other nation in his final days in office, and I think it's not an exaggeration to say that this could be a real possibility.[/QUOTE]

Not after the six. There was a low key story on Cnn where they said Pelosi talked with some official at the pentagon who said there was something in place to ensure that would not happen. Even hinting that Trump no longer has access to the football but it is Pence who does.

[DrNewGod]

Politically the two worst things he has done in terms of magnitude, audacity, and destruction is
-- COVID-19 and his lying and misleading which led to the fourth greatest mass-death crisis in America's history (after the Spanish Flu, World War II, the Civil War). 400,000plus people will die in numbers that need not have been that high and that constitutes an act of beyond criminal negligence and institutional mass murder of a section of the citizenry all for entirely nihilistic reasons.
-- The coup attempt on January 6. The COVID-19 pandemic would have happened no matter who was President. Had HRC won in 2016 it would have been up to her. She would not have let it be so damaging. However January 6 Coup, that was all done by Trump. Nobody else other than him would have done it. It killed five people, more than Benghazi, more than JFK's assassination and it broke something that can't be unbroken or entirely fixed again. It can never be said that there wasn't a Presidential candidate in US History who didn't attempt a coup d'etat.

These two things are on a scale above every other evil thing he has done as a sitting President in the last 4 years.

The Charlottesville thing wasn't incited and planned by him directly. January 6 was.

The Charlottesville was a typical right-wing march and rally of the kind that's not new in American history and is basically the Tea Party but taken a step further (or the Tea Party without the dog whistles). But January 6 for a President was beyond anything that anyone has done.

The only way Trump can excede this is if he nukes Iran or any other nation in his final days in office, and I think it's not an exaggeration to say that this could be a real possibility.

Your ranking make sense to me. Where do you put Trump's Concentration Camps on the list. Not at all disputing your logic so far, just curious.

[Joker]

The handling of Covid is the worst thing the Republican party did.

A fucking attempted Coup is the worst thing Trump did.

[Mister Mets]

Is the insurrection the worst thing Trump has ever done? Even over his handling of Charlottesville and COVID-19?

It's probably tied with his biggest COVID-19 mistake, encouraging mask-wearing to be a culture war issue.

It's a terrorist attack. Not a protest.

Nobody here is saying the terrorist march is the same as the Tea Party protests. Ideologically and rhetorically it has similarities, but the Tea Party-ites didn't cross the line the way the capitol terrorists do.

According to your own principles, are the Capitol rioters and terrorists the same as the Tea Party protests? Do you morally and legally equate these two, the way you are rhetorically equating the BLM protests and the capitol terrorists?



It should not treat a terrorist attack in favor of Democrats differently than terrorist attacks in favor of Republicans. But it should treat a terrorist attack differently than a protest.

No one is saying that the Tea Party protests, which were obnoxious astroturfed events from the Obama years, but otherwise a legal protest is the same as the Capitol terrorist attack.



Well, I am seriously horrified and disturbed, as well as profoundly disappointed that you cannot distinguish between a terrorist attack on the Nation's capitol to prevent the certification of an election, and a protest.

I have to ask, are the Tea Party protests equivalent to the terrorist attack? Legally, I would never call the Tea Party protests of that time terrorist attacks or equate them even with Charlottesville. Sure it was troubling and dog-whistle racist and yeag set the stage for what happened later...but I wouldn't equate those protests with what happened.



Well you keep saying that winning the popular vote doesn't matter, you keep discounting my arguments that the Republican party is in deep trouble because it doesn't win popular votes anymore and is generally unpopular across the board? Events in Georgia last week have vindicated my views over yours about the weakness of the Republican party and the great trouble it's in, because it turns out that 2020 election was bad for the Republicans, actually. So yeah, by your own views, I have to say that as a red voter in a blue district who doesn't believe in popular representative government, that you should, for sake of consistency, shut up and accept the political hegemony of your district and your state. Or you can rethink your views.

To be clear, I think the people who came into DC can be divided into protesters, rioters and terrorists. Those who ran into the capitol and/ or damaged things outside can be divided into rioters, terrorists and potentially other forms of bad actors.

Whatever standard we use has to apply regardless of what side someone's on. Whatever objective standards designate a stop the steal idiot as a terrorist would designate someone part of Black Lives Matter doing the same thing as a terrorist. If we designate this as a terrorist attack, we would need some objective standards that would mean that other protests can gone bad that meet the same standard would also count as terrorist attacks. I would note that there have been plenty of protests where some people rioted, broke into government property, fought police and threatened officials, but that not everyone involved in those protests, and not even majorities of those are rioters or terrorists.

You did previously express the idea that what side someone is on matters legally. I wrote "the law should not make a distinction between what is acceptable rhetoric or behavior because of what side protesters are on." You said "Making distinctions is indeed what law is about. As I said before, you are not a lawyer or a judge. You are a citizen, and you should voice your opinion as a citizen rather than discourse on that which you clearly do not know." Perhaps you misspoke, but there doesn't appear to be another reading of what you said than that you strongly disagree with the idea that the legal standards for what is acceptable rhetoric or behavior should differ based on what side someone is on. I'm glad that you're no longer arguing that point.

One can support or defend the electoral college while still thinking it's possible to have an impact, by articulating perspectives in the hopes it's going to change someone's mind, by donating to candidates in swing states. If someone is in favor of having presidential elections determined by the national popular vote, it wouldn't make my district or state less homogenous in any way.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Not after the six. There was a low key story on Cnn where they said Pelosi talked with some official at the pentagon who said there was something in place to ensure that would not happen. Even hinting that Trump no longer has access to the football but it is Pence who does.

That's just talk (and ethically dubious on Pelosi's part to essentially circumvent the chain of command, defensible as a short-term measure but ideally she should call for immediate impeachment).

And Trump has his guys in the Pentagon with his high profile firings and so on.

And even then something like say, a drone attack on the Ayatollah's residency or the Iranian parliament, ordering an outright war crime would be horrible enough without nuking the Gulf. Maybe the Iranian defense intercepts it, but I am sure the US Military has the capacity do it if need be and only avoid it because they don't want to go public with being an imperial nation.

[Hypestyle]

I would hope that somebody like retired general Colin Powell and these past high ranking administrators can force a meeting with 45 and just tell him, point blank, "It's over. Resign. Now.". People like McConnell will stall on any impeachment proceedings in the senate, until he is removed of his leadership status on the 20th..

Whatever happens, I hope that 45 can still be sanctioned criminally and ethically, where he can't earn any kind of presidential pension or qualify for secret service details for the rest of his life. The government-based grift by this man and his family has to end completely and definitively.

.. No airports or federal facilities named after him. No "presidential library"-- hell no, nothing that reworks the narrative in his favor. That's definitely out.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The handling of Covid is the worst thing the Republican party did.

A fucking attempted Coup is the worst thing Trump did.

At this point, what's the difference?

[Kirby101]

Trump did terrible things, some where from his policy and his incompetence. He will be responsible for a good portion of the half a million deaths we will see before Covid is done. He has seriously harmed most of the institutions he was in charge of.
But there is also his criminal and treasonous behavior, we cannot ignore that worked for Putin.
This coup attempt is just the culmination of a incompetent, immoral, criminal treasonous Presidency.

[DrNewGod]

...And even then something like say, a drone attack on the Ayatollah's residency or the Iranian parliament, ordering an outright war crime would be horrible enough without nuking the Gulf. Maybe the Iranian defense intercepts it, but I am sure the US Military has the capacity do it if need be and only avoid it because they don't want to go public with being an imperial nation.

That gives me a serious case of cold sweats. But I have just enough faith in the senior officer class of the US Military to trust it won't happen ("Unfortunate logistic complications Mr. President." etc.). The guys that actually order the killing aren't dummies, or robots. Most of them have advanced graduate degrees. They aren't Sterling Haywood's character from Dr. Strangelove.

BTW: Thanks Jack. Probably going to sleep like shit tonight

[Mister Mets]

Poll: Majority of Republicans blame Biden for mob storming the Capitol

No surprise. I’m seeing in my twitter feed a lot of conservative supporters who think Biden somehow got antifa to masquerade as Trump voters in order to make Trump look bad.

Some other polls are a bit more reassuring.

Two-thirds of Republicans and Trump voters saw the participants in the riot as either criminals or fools, and a further 17 percent didn't answer. 9% saw them as "concerned citizens" and 5% called them "patriots" which is way too high, but nowhere near a majority.

https://news.trust.org/item/20210108210622-t35pv

A PBS/ Marist poll shows 17 percent of Republicans believing perpetrators shouldn't be prosecuted, and 18 percent approved of the riots, which is too high but not the 45 percent in the YouGov poll.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/pbs-new....AYe9ptLF.dpbs

I wonder if a difference is that the earlier YouGov poll occurred before many people learned more about what happened.

[DrNewGod]

Trump did terrible things, some where from his policy and his incompetence. He will be responsible for a good portion of the half a million deaths we will see before Covid is done. He has seriously harmed most of the institutions he was in charge of.
But there is also his criminal and treasonous behavior, we cannot ignore that worked for Putin.
This coup attempt is just the culmination of a incompetent, immoral, criminal treasonous Presidency.

He benefited Putin. You could be right about him being an asset. You can't establish it. Claiming it without evidence is unhelpfully angry hysteria.

You know. What MAGAssholes do about everything.

[babyblob]

Here is a question. Can a president still be impeached after he leaves office if the process starts before he leaves office? if so then my mind will be firmly in the camp of impeachment being something they should pursue. I didnt know it would cost him his benefits or secret service. I just thought it removed him from office.

And hpw bad are the GOp sweating right now knowing they lost the senate and cant block Biden's cabinet? A lot of people who took part in this madness are now worried about the people coming in who will investigate the Hell our of this.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Your ranking make sense to me. Where do you put Trump's Concentration Camps on the list. Not at all disputing your logic so far, just curious.

The migrant cages on border and the family separation is a policy that originated with W. and continued under Obama and intensified under Trump. He and Sessions and Miller did appalling horrific things but they aren't lying when they said they inherited an issue from earlier administrations.

You have to separate crises Trump inherited and which in some form would have likely continued under HRC, to stuff unique to him.

The way I see it is...take Hitler. Hitler did several awful and monstrous things right before World War II.
-- He and his fascist thugs plotted a failed coup in Munich, in the 1920s, that led to the deaths of 20 people (16 Nazis, 4 Weimar Republic Germans). And that also included by the way, plots to isolate and kidnap the city's Jews, imprison them (some were imprisoned) and then submit them to trial and proscriptions. Yeah the genocide thing that was there from Day 1.
-- The Nazis formed street gangs that had license to vandalize, intimidate, beat up and kill and relied on the Weimar Republic's lax police and judiciary to basically give them a slap on the wrist. Already the Nazi blackshirts killed many people.
-- On taking power and centralizing it with the Enabling Act, Hitler via judges launched a policy of judicial murder where Weimar Republic dissidents, political opponents and others were sentenced and executed. 12,000 died. The first concentration camp Dachau was erected in 1933. This is separate from the more storied inter-party purge of the Night of the Long Knives (where he killed a section of Nazis that had outlived its usefulness to him).
-- The organized state-sponsored anti-semitic pogroms of Kristallnacht.
-- The T-4 Extermination program, where he sanctioned the murder of disabled children, killing 300,000 innocent kids and disabled people.
-- Supporting Franco during the Spanish Civil War, sending Nazi plans to bomb Guernica and others, committing scores of war crimes.
-- Breaking international treaties and annexing Sudetenland.

Still for all these uniquely awful things which Hitler did, for the graveyards he filled right before World War II...and for the fact that he launched World War II. One action towers above all the rest -- The Holocaust. That defines him over and above all the other evil things he did. [For those who want to know, I read about this from the writings of historians Ian Kershaw and Volker Ullrich].

Trump's actions don't arise to that action yet...but that's because USA in the 2010s isn't Germany in the 1920s. But what happened on January 6 is the Beer Hall Putsch. There's literally nothing else that resembles it quite so much. And Trump's personality and way of commanding and operating in his party resembles Adolf Hitler in a way nobody does.

So yeah, Covid-19 and January 6. All things being equal and Trump does nothing more, this will define him.

[DrNewGod]

...But what happened on January 6 is the Beer Hall Putsch. There's literally nothing else that resembles it quite so much. And Trump's personality and way of commanding and operating in his party resembles Adolf Hitler in a way nobody does. ...

That's my assessment as well, and it worries me mightily. I don't think Trump can pull a second act, but I do worry somebody else can harness this energy.