All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Mister Mets]

There's a major story about Trump doing some messed up stuff that has serious implications that, as far as I can tell, hasn't been mentioned here.

Maggie Haberman of the New York Times has heard that Trump expects to be reinstated by summer.

Trump has been telling a number of people he’s in contact with that he expects he will get reinstated by August (no that isn’t how it works but simply sharing the information).

Charlie Cooke of the National Review has heard the same. Trump also thinks Senators David Perdue and Martha McSally will be restored to office. He notes the absurdity of the belief, that there is no evidence of a massive fraud of that level, and even if it were true (it is not) that are no mechanisms to reinstate Trump, Perdue or McSally.

I'm wondering here if a downside to taking Trump's twitter away is that we're hearing the crazy stuff secondhand. I can understand an argument that the tradeoffs are worth it.

[Mister Mets]

I have never considered Trump some sort of Master mind. but what he is good at is tapping into people's fears and hate. He knows how to work a crowd and play on feelings. he may not be smart but he can whop people into a frenzy and that can be just as dangerous. We are just lucky more of how cult are brain dead idiots who cared more about photo ops and camera time on the 6th. If there was any sort of leader who knew what they were doing, or a group of people who could have taken charge of the crowd things would have been much different.

Im more worried about Trump 2.0 The person who can whip a crowd up like Trump is charismatic, but has the brains to put people in place to make him a threat.

There is definitely a potential threat for someone who has similar views to Trump, but more self-control and awareness of what would be too disadvantageous.

On the other hand, that person could probably avoid the worst things about Trump.

So far he’s been capable enough to collude with the Russians to cheat in an election, become President despite multiple gaffes and outright slander, avoid impeachment the first time, still remain POTUS despite multiple breaches of conduct and ethics, mishandling the COVID response leading to over 600,000 deaths, dispatched a mob to the Capitol resulting in multiple deaths, avoided a second impeachment and has somehow remained the defacto leader of the GOP.
I don’t think it’s safe to underestimate his ability at this point.

And if he didn't collude with Russians and/ or cheat in the election?

The thing about fascism is, though: It only takes one. My country only had one Hitler. Look what he did.

The concerns about a new Hitler are understandable, but every other political figure people worry about is not that level. Most don't come close.

Note: Saying Trump is not Hitler the Sequel is not the same as saying anything nice about Trump.

[shooshoomanjoe]

There is definitely a potential threat for someone who has similar views to Trump, but more self-control and awareness of what would be too disadvantageous.

On the other hand, that person could probably avoid the worst things about Trump.

And if he didn't collude with Russians and/ or cheat in the election?

The concerns about a new Hitler are understandable, but every other political figure people worry about is not that level. Most don't come close.

Note: Saying Trump is not Hitler the Sequel is not the same as saying anything nice about Trump.

But trump Jr. admitted that the trump tower meeting with the Russians was to collude with Russia. That was after trump asked Russia to hack Clinton's e-mails; which I would say makes him a traitor since, I believe, asking a foreign power to attack your political opponent is treason.

[CSTowle]

The thing is it's irrelevant. Donald Trump is stupid...but he's rich, white, successful, and above all, lucky. If Trump was down just one of those four attributes he might have paid a price with his self-destructive behavior, instead because he's all four of those, what happens is other people suffer and pay for stuff that he does.

Trump is like Hitler in that he's a gambler. Hitler was lucky and he was on a hot streak and was constantly daring himself and others to bet higher and higher. All his crazy unconventional actions, like for insistence, his plan to bypass the Maginot Line was on paper not the wisest, and of the kind that could have been undone had things been a little different and instead he managed to luck out. Hitler often said that he was always willing to bet it all on a single card. Trump has likewise gambled and taken risks and he's been cushioned from consequences and he's been rewarded with success, so that creates a psychology of radicalism where he's gonna spiral and dare higher and higher heedless of consequences. That makes him unpredictable, and that also adds to his aura of impunity which his base likes a lot.

To others on this board, guys reality is not a comic book or a fantasy movie. It might offend people's sense of pride that the person who has come further than Joseph McCarthy, heck even Jefferson Davis, Charles Lindbergh, Richard Nixon in putting America on the road to fascism is in a lot of respects, a less impressive figure than the old rogues gallery of the American Left...but it doesn't matter, the danger's real. Trump's not an evil genius but that doesn't mean he can't f--k up the world. Because he has acquired a great deal of personal power and political leverage for him to pose a threat. In reality, the world can end by Paste Pot Pete assembling the Infinity Gauntlet and not Thanos. That might seem undignified or offend your sense of pride but I suggest you get over it.

Yeah, like I said before he's a con man. He doesn't need to make money in casinos or the USFL (which somehow is coming back, shows how much I pay attention to sports news these days) or even keep from going bankrupt. He just needs someone with power, influence, or resources to keep believing in his bull$#!+ enough to keep him going for the next con. When you fail up constantly and have that "aura of impunity" it makes people think you're a winner, and people who want to be winners will idolize and follow those that fit that bill in their mind.

Nobody wants to believe they've been conned, so once they have been even if it's clear that they have they'll deny it to themselves and others and take offense at the suggestion. There's a reason he was so popular amongst the Wall Street set in the 80s, not dumb people by any means, and it took a while for them to realize he was a con artist because everybody in that world at the time wanted to be what he projected and nobody wanted to be the first to say, "you know, I don't think he knows what the hell he's talking about". Especially when he was successful and all over media.

While they did eventually and few would lend him money or work with him, Joe and Jane Main Street with concerns of their own didn't really know much beyond what they saw on the news or his occasional pop culture appearances before the Apprentice (all of which continued to build his brand of "successful billionaire/genius"). He ran pretty much the same con on them running for President, but went from a (relatively) soft-spoken blowhard to a carnival barker style cartoon character. He peppered that with racism when he decided on Republican this time around (having run as a Libertarian and voted Democratic in the past). I don't know if he's any more racist than your typical white billionaire, who believe their wealth comes from hard work and that society and circumstances are excuses for the lazy/poor, but he knows his audience and how to manipulate them. Him saying out loud the things whispered or hinted at were enough to inspire fierce loyalty in a significant portion of the Republican base. There's a reason things like that story I linked to about the military man having his mic cut for saying nice things about black people honoring dead soldiers in the aftermath of the Civil War happen regularly. It's become normalized.

I don't worry about him as the next Hitler because 1. He's too old to continue this movement and his kids are generally dips##ts, and most of his closest followers are barely competent lickspittle sycophants with no ambition beyond pleasing the master and grabbing the crumbs that fall from table and 2. He doesn't care about ideology or anything else past his personal gain. What I worry about is the fact that at any given time in history more people than I ever wanted to believe are ready to follow someone like him if that person gives them something to believe in. There's very little loyalty to our current system, and people are most likely to be inspired by and follow someone with extreme ideology because that moves the needle more than maintaining the status quo or fixing the current system. People want change now (see current Democratic voters wanted to can the filibuster without much thought for what happens when Republicans eventually get back into power and you have no method for stopping them in the minority).

Someone will take advantage of that, and that frightens me. I think the only answer to that is to try to do what we can to keep the current system working for everyone, as people who are comfortable are less likely to look for extreme solutions and risk their lives/livelihood, and to keep ourselves from radicalizing and helping to push us further along the path to conflict. It's not sexy or exciting, but being the adults in the room and plodding towards progress is what's going to keep us from fascism. It's the role the Democratic party and its supporters have had to take since Reagan came along, and probably will have to until demographics force Republicans to abandon the pursuit of white supremacy and work towards reaching out to other people. "When they go low, we go high" isn't as exciting as "punch a Nazi", but its probably the best answer for the country.

[Mister Mets]

Then why do you treat the GOP with a silken glove after they failed to impeach Trump a 2nd time, after they uphold the big lie, after they ousted Liz Cheney, after they blocked the Jan 6 commission.



Okay if you are a conservative who dislikes Trump and votes Biden why are you so resistant and so quick to exculpate the current GOP from failing to hold him to account and divorce its party from his legacy.



It was Warnock and Ossoff who made Schumer Sen. Maj. Leader...on the morning of January 6 as it happens. Sinema wasn't even on the ballot on 2020.



So why not a word against Fox, a newsmedia that literally caused several thousand deaths thanks to vaccine disinformation over decades?



And again why is there no word against the current House Leadership for their cowardly behavior under Kevin McCarthy?



People used Post-9/11 literally weeks after the attacks. Don't clutch those pearls just yet.



Here are stuff that say otherwise:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...oting-in-2020/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/13/opini...ton/index.html
https://www.brookings.edu/research/t...us-data-shows/

The fact is 2020 was a Pandemic election which played a part in spiking up turnout from both Dems and the GOP. The GOP know this, hence the voter suppression bills across the states (of which you have not voiced any protest) rather than say trying to moderate to woo back GOP voters who moved away from them. There was negligible and fairly insignificant amount of vote flips in Arizona and other places. To the extent there were vote flips, it seems to be the kind that went red-to-blue and unlikely to go back again.



Well try and live in reality with the rest of us for a change, rather than go to an imaginary fantasyland of conservative principles which the GOP obviously cares or thinks about far less than you seem to do. Come back to reality, and nobody will have to make that comment again.

Perhaps I was mistaken to take you literally, although I do believe comments about an individual should be held to a higher standard than other views.

One of my principles is that we should treat others with respect, and not dictate how they spend their free time on a hobby, in this case discussing politics with strangers.

There are multiple reasons for a lack of response on an issue. It could be that a person was busy. It could be that someone else said what they have to say, so there isn't much to add to a conversation. It could be that they're not informed enough about the specifics of a question to comment on it. It could also be that the topic didn't come up before.

If you have a question about my views on an issue, ask it in a non-loaded way and I'll do my best to answer.

If Sinema had lost the Senate election in 2018, Warnock and Ossoff's wins would only have given Democrats 49 Senators. So she is rather important to the party. If she announced tomorrow that the party is crazy and she's conferencing with Republicns, McConnell will be Senate Majority Leader.

I'm not a fan of Fox News, but they're generally considered to be separate from the mainstream ostensibly nonpartisan media. They have a different reputation than the institutions followed by the posters who didn't know that the lab leak hypothesis was at the very least an open question.

I will prioritize responding to what I see as unfair personal attacks. I'm probably not unique in that, but until those are resolved, I'm less inclined to answer responses on sensitive topics with someone who is either acting in bad faith, or interpreting comments in an ungenerous way.

The articles you cite don't dispute the idea that pissed off Republicans were decisive to Biden's win given how close the pivotal states ended up being.

On the comparison between 9/11 and the capitol attack, thousands were murdered on 9/11. Five rioters died during January 6, and a noble police officer had a stroke. That is sad, but nowhere near equivalent.

[Zauriel]

There's a major story about Trump doing some messed up stuff that has serious implications that, as far as I can tell, hasn't been mentioned here.

Maggie Haberman of the New York Times has heard that Trump expects to be reinstated by summer.



Charlie Cooke of the National Review has heard the same. Trump also thinks Senators David Perdue and Martha McSally will be restored to office. He notes the absurdity of the belief, that there is no evidence of a massive fraud of that level, and even if it were true (it is not) that are no mechanisms to reinstate Trump, Perdue or McSally.

I'm wondering here if a downside to taking Trump's twitter away is that we're hearing the crazy stuff secondhand. I can understand an argument that the tradeoffs are worth it.

Trump is not a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is a wolf in a straitjacket.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If Sinema had lost the Senate election in 2018,...

Well if the Big Bang didn't happen, if the meteor didn't kill the dinosaurs...yada yada yada...

Expert fudging of the issue as always.

Warnock and Ossoff's wins would only have given Democrats 49 Senators.

Warnock and Ossoff's wins happened when the Sen. Majority was on the ballot in a red state, in a situation heavily favoring the GOP. That's obviously not convenient for you to acknowledge, their runoff campaign was specifically painted by them and their opponents as a referendum on who should get to hold the levers on Biden's agenda.

The Senate Majority of 2020-2021 wasn't on the ballot in 2018 when Sinema defeated McSally you know, or at least you should know.

If she announced tomorrow that the party is crazy and she's conferencing with Republicns, McConnell will be Senate Majority Leader.

Ah...so this is the fanfiction you've been writing in your mind recently, so cute.

The articles you cite don't dispute the idea that pissed off Republicans were decisive to Biden's win given how close the pivotal states ended up being.

It doesn't highlight them as having a significant role, or even being the protagonists of reality as you seem to assume. To the extent every little vote counts in a democracy, no more no less, obviously it played a role. That's not the same as what you seem to assume which is giving them a starring role in Biden's victory.

On the comparison between 9/11 and the capitol attack, thousands were murde red on 9/11.

Nobody died during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but the nuclear apocalypse that almost happened and didn't is a major event of the 1960s. The Capitol Putsch was a minute or so away from becoming a massacre of lawmakers but the fact that far more died than during the Cuban Missile Crisis is obviously not a concern for you.

I recommend again a warm embrace of reality, for your health and comfort.

[Wildling]

Pennsylvania Republican hikes into the woods to avoid speaking to reporters

Do we know if he put on a mask and terrorized camping minorities after going into the woods?

[TheDarman]

There is definitely a potential threat for someone who has similar views to Trump, but more self-control and awareness of what would be too disadvantageous.

On the other hand, that person could probably avoid the worst things about Trump.

The issue is that a polished Trump is no longer Trump. What appealed to so many people, and made Trump successful in so many places Romney and McCain weren’t, was the stuff about Trump someone with self-control and awareness of perception wouldn’t say or do. Frankly, Trump spoke in platitudes. Very little of what he said he was for had any real meaning to it besides sounding good to the right people. It was his charisma and the dogma he used that got him where he was.

You can’t dissociate the stuff that turned people off of Trump from the stuff that made him appealing to others in new swing states like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.

And if he didn't collude with Russians and/ or cheat in the election?

It changes nothing about his efforts in Ukraine. It changes nothing about his efforts to undermine faith in our election system. It changes nothing about how he used the DOJ to shield himself from personal legal and media-driven scandals.

The concerns about a new Hitler are understandable, but every other political figure people worry about is not that level. Most don't come close.

Trump doesn’t have to be Hitler to be dangerous. He could just be the next Erdogan and that alone is scary enough—especially for the ethnic minorities who are left voiceless in our “democratic” system.

Note: Saying Trump is not Hitler the Sequel is not the same as saying anything nice about Trump.

Nah. Hyperbole is rampant. Hitler was a far more competent leader with a general curiosity about imperialism and how to make that happen. I never saw Trump as a guy with the vision for a country. He was a reactionary president and he lashed out at anyone who he felt wronged him. That was his day-to-day—torment those he viewed as beneath him and hit back at those who called him out. It wasn’t a policy vehicle; it was, quite literally, a communications apparatus. Trump may communicate like an authoritarian (and he is one at heart—just look at your shared story), but he lacks the vision, focus, and drive to deliver the actions until he has sufficiently brought both all members in his single-party state to heel.

[worstblogever]

But trump Jr. admitted that the trump tower meeting with the Russians was to collude with Russia. That was after trump asked Russia to hack Clinton's e-mails; which I would say makes him a traitor since, I believe, asking a foreign power to attack your political opponent is treason.

And Trump learned his lesson so well he asked Ukraine to help him do it again in 2019 to get dirt on Biden.

Do we know if he put on a mask and terrorized camping minorities after going into the woods?

That would be off brand. Republicans are anti-mask at the moment.

[CaptainEurope]

Trump was charismatic enough to have attracted scores of followers who flew flags from coast to coast, held caravans and actual flotillas to profess their love for him, something that hasn't been seen in this country in decades, if ever. He whipped enough fanatics into a mouth foaming frenzy that eventually led to the Capitol Riot, god only knows what sort of violence they might've committed had they gotten their hands on frightened lawmakers like they threatened. Remember, those lunatics constructed a gallows outside the building with the intention being to string up Mike Pence. Why do you think EVERY social media network banned Trump? Because they feared he would repeat what happened on 1/6 since he's STILL floating the big lie that the election was stolen from him, let's get real here, give that madman even half a chance and he would!

Exactly. Jack acts as if we did not have almost 6 years to witness that Trump does, indeed, inspire fascist hordes.

[CaptainEurope]

It's not a question or issue of seeing Trump as an "evil genius", it's a question of seeing him as a major threat and danger. That's not the same thing as being an "evil genius".

Hitler was, in many ways, quite bad at his job.

[Tendrin]

Hitler was, in many ways, quite bad at his job.

Yeah, Hitler's competency is a myth, much like the notion that Nazi Germany was 'orderly'.

[Wildling]

That would be off brand. Republicans are anti-mask at the moment.

They could always go for the Jason Voorhees mask, holed enough to risk infection while stabbing you to death with a machete. Or terrible politics.

Are Republicans big hockey fans?

[WestPhillyPunisher]

There's a major story about Trump doing some messed up stuff that has serious implications that, as far as I can tell, hasn't been mentioned here.

Maggie Haberman of the New York Times has heard that Trump expects to be reinstated by summer.



Charlie Cooke of the National Review has heard the same. Trump also thinks Senators David Perdue and Martha McSally will be restored to office. He notes the absurdity of the belief, that there is no evidence of a massive fraud of that level, and even if it were true (it is not) that are no mechanisms to reinstate Trump, Perdue or McSally.

I'm wondering here if a downside to taking Trump's twitter away is that we're hearing the crazy stuff secondhand. I can understand an argument that the tradeoffs are worth it.

Damn right the tradeoff was worth it. Secondhand talk from flacks and sycophants can be dismissed as nonsense, but giving Trump back his favorite social media platform would almost certainly run the risk of touching off Capitol Riot 2.0 since he'd waste zero time stirring up his fanatics and urging them to stage a second attack.