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  1. #2941
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The last time the Act was used with out the consent of the State was in Alabama to enforce desegregation of schools... that's right the US Army occupied public schools so that people of color can go there.
    I always find it funny when people refer to the Army as a "broad sword" or a "hammer" in the need of a scalpel. The chances are people who say such things never served, or if they did not in a combat MOS. The US army are discipline individuals with an operational knowledge of engagement that more than capable.
    I don’t subscribe to that rationale. In my opinion, soldiers aren’t robots possessed of infallible judgment, they’re human like everyone else and have the potential to make mistakes, despite their training. And in pressure packed situations where they’re dealing with angry and irrational people, anything could go wrong, leading to a terrible result. Sending in the military to quell riots should be the avenue of absolute last resort for a situation that’s gone full blown FUBAR, not the first choice of an irrational president wanting to play strongman to show the world he’s a tough guy. Oh, by the way, only authoritarian regimes uses the military against its own citizens.
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  2. #2942
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    I don’t subscribe to that rationale. In my opinion, soldiers aren’t robots possessed of infallible judgment, they’re human like everyone else and have the potential to make mistakes, despite their training. And in pressure packed situations where they’re dealing with angry and irrational people, anything could go wrong, leading to a terrible result. Sending in the military to quell riots should be the avenue of absolute last resort for a situation that’s gone full blown FUBAR, not the first choice of an irrational president wanting to play strongman to show the world he’s a tough guy. Oh, by the way, only authoritarian regimes uses the military against its own citizens.
    While it's certainly fair to say the military aren't infallible robots, it's not necessarily unfair to assume they might be better trained and more disciplined. For what it's worth the military was called in to stop the LA riots in 92 and they were sucessful. So there is a presidence to doing it IF the situation can't be contained any other way.

    But it's certainly true the military shouldn't be the first resort ... and thus far they have not be used. The police and national guard still have a chance to take control of the situation and end the riots without Trump needing to call in the military. We'll see whether or not they can take care of the job, or better yet if the rioters simply come to their senses and stop on their own. That's obviously best case scenario.

  3. #2943
    Amazing Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    While it's certainly fair to say the military aren't infallible robots, it's not necessarily unfair to assume they might be better trained and more disciplined. For what it's worth the military was called in to stop the LA riots in 92 and they were sucessful. So there is a presidence to doing it IF the situation can't be contained any other way.

    But it's certainly true the military shouldn't be the first resort ... and thus far they have not be used. The police and national guard still have a chance to take control of the situation and end the riots without Trump needing to call in the military. We'll see whether or not they can take care of the job, or better yet if the rioters simply come to their senses and stop on their own. That's obviously best case scenario.
    I mean, the vast majority of people are protesting peacefully, the last few days have been entirely peaceful, calling them ‘riots’ is just inaccurate and disingenuous. People have every right to protest against police brutality and systematic racism.

  4. #2944
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cid=spartandhp

    Violent cops are violent, and are frequently the source of the violence we hear about so often. Anyway, property can be repaired. People, frequently, can not be.

    Meanwhile:

    The military might be able to 'restore order', but it's sure as hell not a precedent or a president we want with that power.

  5. #2945
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    I mean, the vast majority of people are protesting peacefully, the last few days have been entirely peaceful, calling them ‘riots’ is just inaccurate and disingenuous. People have every right to protest against police brutality and systematic racism.
    And no one is saying people shouldn't have the right to protest peacefully (if you ignore the issue of social distancing during a pandemic).

    But there has been looting, buildings being burned down, and innocent people injured and even flat out murdered. But if things are slowly beginning to quiet down and continue to do so then obviously the military won't be needed worst case scenario can be avoided. We'll see.

  6. #2946
    Amazing Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And no one is saying people shouldn't have the right to protest peacefully (if you ignore the issue of social distancing during a pandemic).

    But there has been looting, buildings being burned down, and innocent people injured and even flat out murdered. But if things are slowly beginning to quiet down and continue to do so then obviously the military won't be needed worst case scenario can be avoided. We'll see.
    yes everyone is aware there’s a pandemic, nobody needs to be reminded of that, and everyone also knows there’s been looting and burning

    but none of that is the point of the protests, people’s concern about police brutality and systemic racism are the priority

  7. #2947
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/BeauxHandsome/st...96058652344326

    Read the links in this thread about the case of Geroge Stinny Jr, an African American that was executed by the state for murder in 1944.

    He was 14.

  8. #2948
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    I don’t subscribe to that rationale. In my opinion, soldiers aren’t robots possessed of infallible judgment, they’re human like everyone else and have the potential to make mistakes, despite their training. And in pressure packed situations where they’re dealing with angry and irrational people, anything could go wrong, leading to a terrible result. Sending in the military to quell riots should be the avenue of absolute last resort for a situation that’s gone full blown FUBAR, not the first choice of an irrational president wanting to play strongman to show the world he’s a tough guy. Oh, by the way, only authoritarian regimes uses the military against its own citizens.
    My comments was not if the insurrection act should be used or not just the manner in which the military will behave if such an event happened. Some seem to think it'll be cage dogs let loose on the street.

    Both JFK and LBJ use the insurrection act to use the military against US citizens without state government approval. The act has been used multiple times throughout us history. George Washington was the first president to send troops against American citizen in the Whisky Rebellion
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 06-04-2020 at 08:52 PM.
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  9. #2949
    Amazing Member Maine Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And no one is saying people shouldn't have the right to protest peacefully
    That’s kind of what you’re suggesting when you say “end the riots”

    I mean that’s how it comes across, when you constantly refer to the protests as riots, and then talk about them as something that need to end and be controlled. That’s all you seem concerned with. It’s not all that different from Trumps perspective, he thinks of the protesters as “terrorists” and wants to dominate them.

  10. #2950
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    That’s kind of what you’re suggesting when you say “end the riots”

    I mean that’s how it comes across, when you constantly refer to the protests as riots, and then talk about them as something that need to end and be controlled. That’s all you seem concerned with. It’s not all that different from Trumps perspective, he thinks of the protesters as “terrorists” and wants to dominate them.
    Something, something, 'prefers order'...

  11. #2951
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine Starfish View Post
    That’s kind of what you’re suggesting when you say “end the riots”

    I mean that’s how it comes across, when you constantly refer to the protests as riots, and then talk about them as something that need to end and be controlled. That’s all you seem concerned with. It’s not all that different from Trumps perspective, he thinks of the protesters as “terrorists” and wants to dominate them.
    I'm not referring to peaceful protests as riots... I'm referring to the riots as riots. Peaceful protests and riots aren't interchangable. One is lawful and one is not. Big difference.

    I've said MANY times in this thread that the rioters are just criminals taking advantage of the protest to commit crimes and steal stuff. It's not all I'm concerned with... but it's what I'm most concerned with. They're the ones who need to be dealt with. Burning down buildings and murdering innocent people obviously isn't peaceful protest.

    I will say I have some issues with the peaceful protest in regards to it violating social distancing... that's an issue which many people are ignoring and that will come back to haunt all of us down the line. But that's not the MOST immediate problem which needs to be addressed.
    Last edited by XPac; 06-04-2020 at 09:13 PM.

  12. #2952
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    In a bit of good news, two Buffalo cops were suspended w/out pay after they were caught on video shoving a 75 year old man to the ground. If you see the video, you can see the man lying on the ground as blood seeps from the back of his head.
    Last edited by AnakinFlair; 06-04-2020 at 09:09 PM.

  13. #2953
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    In a lot of scenarios, I would trust the military to likely conduct itself better than some of the police departments that have shown their failings and screwed up priorities of they were called to stop riots...

    ...But the inherent danger and problem with calling the military in is that it’s the military; the message it sends is one of last resort, of brooking no further transgressions, and often by doing so in stern and implacable manners. The message it sends is much more authoritative than police presence, and therefore turns towards authoritarianism if used unwisely.

    I mean, let’s face it, if Trump did deploy the military, you can bet he would at minimum try and trumpet that as a great political victory for himself, and he’d be liable to be even further emboldened, as would the police departments he almost certainly would back up in their abuses.

    Using military force this way is behind some good things - like enforcing integration - but also lurks behind darker things as well. This is one of those situation where it s a tool and weapon that I would trust in the hands of others, but fear in the hands of Trump.
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  14. #2954
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    I a bit of good news, two Buffalo cops were suspended w/out pay after they were caught on video shoving a 75 year old man to the ground. If you see the video, you can see the man lying on the ground as blood seeps from the back of his head.
    I just saw it on Twitter, very disturbing. I thought they were just going to walk away and leave him there.
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  15. #2955
    Invincible Jersey Girl Tami's Avatar
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    Law Enforcement Seizes Masks Meant To Protect Anti-Racist Protesters From COVID-19

    The Movement for Black Lives (M4BL) spent tens of thousands of dollars on the masks they had planned to send all over the country. The first four boxes, each containing 500 masks, were mailed from Oakland, California, and were destined for Washington, St. Louis, New York City and Minneapolis, where on May 25 a white police officer killed George Floyd, a 46-year-old handcuffed Black man, setting off a wave of protests across the country.

    But the items never left the state. The U.S. Postal Service tracking numbers for the packages indicate they were “Seized by Law Enforcement” and urge the mailer to “contact the U.S. Postal Inspection Service for further information.”

    The U.S. Postal Inspection Service did not immediately respond to HuffPost’s request for comment.

    It’s not entirely clear what law enforcement entity seized the masks or why. But the Justice Department, led by Attorney General William Barr, has taken an aggressive posture against demonstrations and on Thursday expressed concern about “extremist agitators” who are “hijacking the protests to pursue their own separate and violent agenda.”
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