All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[Tami]

There are no extremist in the Democratic Party that compare to the extremist now in the GOP. If you think OAC or Sanders are extremist, you need to rethink your definition.
The Democrats are a Center party with some leaning Left. The GOP is becoming a far Right party with some centrists.

The GOP is becoming a fascist/totalitarian/win at all cost and assume power permanently so that they can keep receiving the benefits without actually doing any work Party that finds it's power in the fears of Whites who think they are becoming extinct, extreme racists who view anyone who isn't them as the enemy, domestic terrorists whose only goal in life is to cause as much mayhem and chaos as possible in hopes that the government will collapse and the country be destroyed, those who have lost their minds in irrational conspiracy theories and misinformation, those who view the confederacy as the side that actually won and will one day rise again, and the gun culture who want to re-envision a wild west world where everyone is free to shoot whomever they want, whenever they want, (except for minorities who exist as nothing more that target practice).

Everyone who isn't That is either a Democrat or various political stripes, a moderate or left-leaning Independent, or a Conservative who refuses to succumb to the insanity. In other words, the 'Others'.

[PwrdOn]

Ah yes, Afghans are never responsible for their own actions, my bad.

The Afghans never wanted us to come "liberate" them in the first place, and the only reason the Afghan army even existed was to be cannon fodder to die in the place of American soldiers. Collaborating with a foreign occupier that bombs weddings and hospitals in the name of spreading democracy is a pretty surefire way to make everyone to despise you, and so their recruits tended to come from the absolute dregs of society, those who had pretty much nothing to lose already, and hardly the material for building an elite fighting force. Ironically, this demographic disillusioned young men is the exact same pool that terrorist groups like the Taliban prefer to recruit from, except that joining the Taliban also gives them a sense of purpose and belonging, in addition to the obvious benefit of joining the winning side, whereas the only advantage to signing up for the government forces is accessing that sweet American cash, and since that's starting to run out most of the soldiers figured it was better to switch sides sooner rather than later.

Now you might think, aren't democracy, freedom, and human rights also causes that people would be inspired to fight and die for? Perhaps, but you have to remember that to most of the world all of these ideas are closely entwined with Western hegemony, and if nothing else the Afghan people are well aware that the geopolitical system that allows Westerners to enjoy material comforts and political freedoms is the exact same one that is responsible for all the chaos and bloodshed that has plagued their country for the last 40 years, not to mention a much longer list of indignities and humiliations dating back centuries. Why would an Afghan soldier throw away his life so that WE can can feel powerful and strong? What have all the sacrifices that they've made in this war gained them?

[WestPhillyPunisher]

The GOP is becoming a fascist/totalitarian/win at all cost and assume power permanently so that they can keep receiving the benefits without actually doing any work Party that finds it's power in the fears of Whites who think they are becoming extinct, extreme racists who view anyone who isn't them as the enemy, domestic terrorists whose only goal in life is to cause as much mayhem and chaos as possible in hopes that the government will collapse and the country be destroyed, those who have lost their minds in irrational conspiracy theories and misinformation, those who view the confederacy as the side that actually won and will one day rise again, and the gun culture who want to re-envision a wild west world where everyone is free to shoot whomever they want, whenever they want, (except for minorities who exist as nothing more that target practice).

Everyone who isn't That is either a Democrat or various political stripes, a moderate or left-leaning Independent, or a Conservative who refuses to succumb to the insanity. In other words, the 'Others'.

I've heard people argue, perhaps in this thread that the Republican Party went off the rails back in the early 90's after Bill Clinton won the presidency (remember how Newt Gingrich started that shutdown back in '96 after he was forced to sit in the back of Air Force One) and things have only gotten crazier from there. The GQP is four alarm insane and they're not going to course correct, not ever.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Afghans never wanted us to come "liberate" them in the first place, and the only reason the Afghan army even existed was to be cannon fodder to die in the place of American soldiers. Collaborating with a foreign occupier that bombs weddings and hospitals in the name of spreading democracy is a pretty surefire way to make everyone to despise you, and so their recruits tended to come from the absolute dregs of society, those who had pretty much nothing to lose already, and hardly the material for building an elite fighting force. Ironically, this demographic disillusioned young men is the exact same pool that terrorist groups like the Taliban prefer to recruit from, except that joining the Taliban also gives them a sense of purpose and belonging, in addition to the obvious benefit of joining the winning side, whereas the only advantage to signing up for the government forces is accessing that sweet American cash, and since that's starting to run out most of the soldiers figured it was better to switch sides sooner rather than later.

Now you might think, aren't democracy, freedom, and human rights also causes that people would be inspired to fight and die for? Perhaps, but you have to remember that to most of the world all of these ideas are closely entwined with Western hegemony, and if nothing else the Afghan people are well aware that the geopolitical system that allows Westerners to enjoy material comforts and political freedoms is the exact same one that is responsible for all the chaos and bloodshed that has plagued their country for the last 40 years, not to mention a much longer list of indignities and humiliations dating back centuries. Why would an Afghan soldier throw away his life so that WE can can feel powerful and strong? What have all the sacrifices that they've made in this war gained them?

I never said that they wanted us to liberate them. We were only in the country because they harbored terrorists. And while our actions were far from perfect, we were far better than the Taliban.

The country had twenty years to change for the better, and it didn't happen. Why is it everyone else's fault but theirs?

[babyblob]

If I may ask- and please tell me to F off if you don't want to answer- why did you vote for Trump? Was it Party loyalty, or was it something about Trump that made you think he could be good for the job? I'm honestly curious.

To be honest party loyalty and pressure from family and friends mostly. I mean I ddint like Clinton at all. And I really bought into the Fox news hype and fake news. I was raised on it. I was questioning a few things about the GOP. Oddly it was my time in prison that I started to. But then took a step back because there was a really manipulative lying Dem Clinton supporter that worked in the half way house who was very shady on politics and how she handled her job based on your political beliefs. Then When I got my own place and started to do my own research and question things on my own I really started to see a lot of what I didnt like about the GOp and they way family and friends handled it was also a wake up call. I dont agree with the Dems on everything but I really hate what the GOP is I would say what has become but a lot of things they are now they have been for many years. Trump and his cult just brought it to the surface.

Edit - I vote4ed for Trump in 2016 but Biden in 2020.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There are no extremist in the Democratic Party that compare to the extremist now in the GOP. If you think OAC or Sanders are extremist, you need to rethink your definition.
The Democrats are a Center party with some leaning Left. The GOP is becoming a far Right party with some centrists.

Oh, I agree. I just mean in general, overreaching terms.

Left wing extremists stay hidden and on the fringes.

Right wing extremists are given talk shows and party leadership.

[Jack Dracula]

A war against the Taliban is not winnable as long as Pakistan is willing to give their leadership refuge without extradition. I think the average Afghan soldier knows that as well as the Afghan military leadership. The Taliban can be beaten out of the country and their leaders escape across the border to regroup, plan, recruit, and raise money.

[Mister Mets]

I would like to think that the person who keeps defending white nationalists openly infiltrating the Republican Party again and again isn't the one they don't find a "toxic combination of obnoxious and wrong" or that such a person is the one who should be trusted. Especially when their response for getting called out for it is to claim it's "obnoxious" to do so, as if they're somehow being victimized.

One truly won't be on the right side of a political argument if they're defending white nationalists, after all.

This is the post that upset you so much you went after me personally.

She does not have a Wikipedia page, and they do not even ask about her in polls (where five percent say they plan to vote for someone not listed), so she doesn't seem to make much of an impact.

https://www.surveyusa.com/client/Pol...4-d1f02a9fe6e5
https://emersonpolling.reportablenew...-for-ca-voters

If the recall goes through (polls indicate it's close), the frontrunners for Governor are Lerry Elder and youtuber Kevin Paffrath (the most prominent Democrat), so the race remains ridiculous enough without Stephens being a relevant figure.

I am perfectly willing to have this be a proxy, even with the typo of Larry Elder's name, for which one of us should be taken seriously.

White nationalists are a justly reviled group, but it only helps them when their detractors double down on mistakes, or make claims about others defending white nationalism when it's not merited.

[PwrdOn]

I never said that they wanted us to liberate them. We were only in the country because they harbored terrorists. And while our actions were far from perfect, we were far better than the Taliban.

The country had twenty years to change for the better, and it didn't happen. Why is it everyone else's fault but theirs?

Because the Afghan government was run by a tiny minority of affluent urban liberals caught between the Taliban-sympathizing majority on one side and the United States on the other, and they were hardly in a position to fight against both of them at the same time. And because they were entirely dependent on American funding to survive, their overriding priority was to do whatever it took to keep that gravy train flowing, rather than actually serving the interests of their own people.

Sure, you can talk about "individual responsibility" all you want, but at the end of the day, what exactly do you expect them to do? Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world with a GDP that's smaller than any of the 50 US states, has been stuck in a state of perpetual civil war since 1978, and even if it weren't for the decades of meddling by just about every foreign power imaginable, is still a geographically isolated and ethnically divided nation that would have a hard go of it in the best of times. So no, 20 years is nowhere near enough time to fix all of that.

[Mister Mets]

To be fair, being a Massachusetts Republican is a whole other animal than the national average as on the whole there isn't the obvious and very public vitriol against gay rights and minorities in the party here but still it was enough to change my mind...and that was a decade ago and things have only gotten worse since then.

It just boggles my mind.

That isn't to say I view all conservatives negatively, I like Charley Baker for instance and think he's done a solid job as Governor here in the Commonwealth, and if he ran for President I would probably at least consider voting for him...but if I ever had just a single one on one with him these would be my questions: How do you stay a Republican in the face of all the terrible things your party does? Why disenfranchise whole sections of the population? How does it make you feel that neo-nazis and klan members feel that your party's values match their own?

The main argument would be that people on the left exaggerate the significance of neo-nazis and klan members as a national force.

A psychiatrist who wasn't a fan of Trump had a good piece on this called "You are still crying wolf."
https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/1...l-crying-wolf/

Years ago, Anonymous released information about KKK members, and there were some expectations that prominent right-wingers would be exposed. Some politicians, Democrats and Republicans, were on the list but that seemed to be more of a prank than anything else (IE- a jerk putting the Democratic mayor of Lexington, Kentucky on a Ku Klux Klan mailing list.) It was discussed on the forum at the time.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...68#post1579468

The initial response to the story would be affected by how you see America. If you think the KKK is a small organization consisting of pathetic and lower-class white people, it would seem unlikely that anyone prominent would be exposed. And that view would be supported by the evidence.

Other examples of progressives seeing racism incorrectly would be freakouts about whether someone flashing an OK symbol or the number three is trying to signify support for white power.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-husband-says/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/b...onspiracy.html

There are no extremist in the Democratic Party that compare to the extremist now in the GOP. If you think OAC or Sanders are extremist, you need to rethink your definition.
The Democrats are a Center party with some leaning Left. The GOP is becoming a far Right party with some centrists.

How do we determine left, right and center here?

Is this in an international context? Or are you thinking about it in terms of where the average American stands politically (IE- if we ranked all American voters on their political ideology, the most progressive third are Left, the middle third are center and the conservative third are Right.)

Oh, I agree. I just mean in general, overreaching terms.

Left wing extremists stay hidden and on the fringes.

Right wing extremists are given talk shows and party leadership.

There are several ways of looking at this.

Progressive extremists are often going to be fighting for noble causes (the environment, equality for minorities, etc.) even if they go too far, so those guys would not be seen as the equivalent of Neonazis, who are definitely not fighting for a noble cause.

Coalition politics also means that Democratic candidates usually need to be able to reach voters who have a different background than they do. There are some fringe groups, but it's very hard to get into elected office as a member if you're not in a majority group. I don't know if there are any state legislative districts where gays would be a majority of constituents, so it's pretty much impossible for an open lesbian separatist to win office. There are quite a few districts where white married Christians are a majority of the voters, and this is reflected in the elected officials.

That said, Democrats who hold unpopular views can still be in good standing in the party. Here, I would use "extremist" descriptively and not prescriptively, as someone who holds unpopular views and advocates for it aggressively.

Cori Bush is a Democratic member of Congress credited for getting Joe Biden to extend the eviction moratorium, despite Biden saying earlier that this would be unconstitutional.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...-even-n1276243

She also advocates for defunding the police, which is a really unpopular policy idea.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cori-bu...rity-response/

[SUPERECWFAN1]

So in comical news the Republican party was caught deleting the page where they celebrated Donald Trump's peace talks with Taliban that started this ball rolling along. And were called out on it as well.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

This was their attempt to shift all blame on Biden and OOOPS.....looks like Trump will have to share the blame on this one as well. Since he started the process...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...prndHGl4Tjp8f0

[worstblogever]

This was their attempt to shift all blame on Biden and OOOPS.....looks like Trump will have to share the blame on this one as well. Since he started the process...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...prndHGl4Tjp8f0

Trump wanted to meet with the Taliban for peace talks at Camp David on the 18th anniversary of 9/11... and didn't want to have the current Afghani government present. It only fell apart because the Taliban attacked U.S. troops days before the proposed meet. Y'know, when they were collecting Russian bounties on American troops and Trump did nothing about that.

Mike Pompeo posed with a Taliban leader released from prison who pinky-swore to him and Trump he wouldn't try to overthrow the new Afghani government in November 2020. The guy Pompeo posed with is likely to be the next Taliban president of Afghanistan.



Every stone on the path of "how we got here" from the past four years has Trump's MAGA logo painted on it. And Putin was probably patting him on the back for it the whole time.

[kidfresh512]

I get that the GOP has been looking for anything at all that could "stick" On Biden and the administration so far. But, using Afghanistan is just ridiculous. Sure you could argue that the Biden administration vastly underestimated the plan to evacuate and speed the Taliban took back territory. But, that also is a failure of the entire war there since the start. Everything we did there was wrong, horribly planned, ill executed. He could have ditched Trumps pullout plan and kicked the can down the road another 10 years.

But, that would have changed? They still wouldn't have been self sustaining government capable of holding on against the Taliban. Other than permanent occupation and throwing money in the hole there getting out offering visas, safety for our trusted allies who are now in danger without amnesty etc. what else is there?

[worstblogever]

This is the post that upset you so much you went after me personally.



I am perfectly willing to have this be a proxy, even with the typo of Larry Elder's name, for which one of us should be taken seriously.

White nationalists are a justly reviled group, but it only helps them when their detractors double down on mistakes, or make claims about others defending white nationalism when it's not merited.

If you stand with the Republican Party right now, you stand with white nationalists. You've given vehement defenses of some of the worst of the party members (Stephen Miller being the prime example, but you've paid some lip service to Matt Gaetz up until he was caught child sex trafficking). You cannot gaslight everyone and pretend it isn't the case that this is what Trump has made your party become. Not when about 23% of your party is polled as admiring white nationalists. Google "Republican Party White Nationalism" and see how many articles come up that no longer even discuss it as a question. It is warranted. Every day.

If you feel it's personal that someone would expect you to give stronger rejections of white nationalists and the white nationalist party you're a part of... That might mean you're not aware you're already getting a toe in that water yourself. No matter how much you try to look in a mirror and tell yourself it's "not merited".

Because, as I've often pointed out, you don't have to defend your party and all its white nationalism reflexively. You can leave it. Which would show a lot more character.

Credit to the two posters that have acknowledged they have today in this thread, and that it was for this very reason.