All purpose news and politics thread part VI: This Is Not The Time For Posing

[babyblob]

Respectfully, this is exactly a "what if?" You don't know what Trump would have done and neither do I. We do know EXACTLY what Biden did, which is catastrophic. Hypotheticals are a waste of time...

It is not a what if. he said several times hi time line was MAy. So blaming Biden for not waiting for winter is moot when Trump was not going to wait either. And how is it what if when I asked how many people Trump got out. That is not a what if. that is a question with a real answer. How many Afgan citizens did Trump let come to America that were going to be in danger with the American with draw? We blame Biden for no getting people out and I get that. But Trump had months and months to get people out after he announced the with draw and he did not. So Trump is no better Biden is no worse. Biden could have handled this better for sure. But I see nothing in Trumps own history or actions that says he would have done better or anything different.

So before you deflect back to Biden take a minute and answer how many Trump helped flee the country.

[Spidey5640]

I would hope we all understand that Trump would have done whatever he thinks is in his own best interests, without a thought for the country's best interests, regardless of any other considerations.

Your opinion only and a classic deflection, you don't know what he would have done. We do know what Biden chose.....and the result

[green_garnish]

The fact that we could never save or assist ALL of those who helped us shouldn't be an excuse for why Biden chose the path that led to us helping so few of them....Biden isn't at fault for us getting into Afghanistan, but is responsible for how we got out...badly and at the unnecessary cost of life.

Yes, the exit was an unforced error on Biden's part. Unquestionably.

[green_garnish]

Your opinion only and a classic deflection, you don't know what he would have done. We do know what Biden chose.....and the result

We do know the motivations that would have driven him to whatever decision he made, and that cannot be good.

[Spidey5640]

It is not a what if. he said several times hi time line was MAy. So blaming Biden for not waiting for winter is moot when Trump was not going to wait either. And how is it what if when I asked how many people Trump got out. That is not a what if. that is a question with a real answer. How many Afgan citizens did Trump let come to America that were going to be in danger with the American with draw? We blame Biden for no getting people out and I get that. But Trump had months and months to get people out after he announced the with draw and he did not. So Trump is no better Biden is no worse.

So before you deflect back to Biden take a minute and answer how many Trump helped flee the country.

You don't know if Trump would have held to the May deadline because he was no longer President. He originally said he would withdraw ALL troops from Syria but then left a force there after listening to his military advisors. Likewise I don't know how many Afghans he got out of the country or how many he would have if he were still President. All we know is what Biden decided and the ongoing consequences of his decision. You are one of the more level-headed posters Babyblob, don't fall into the pattern of deflecting to "what if Trump" or Trump WOULD have.." that's simply unknowable..

[Spidey5640]

We do know the motivations that would have driven him to whatever decision he made, and that cannot be good.

Except we don't. He originally wanted to pull everyone out of Syria but then was persuaded to leave a small force. You simply can't state what he would have done, it's unknowable.

[babyblob]

You don't know if Trump would have held to the May deadline because he was no longer President. He originally said he would withdraw ALL troops from Syria but then left a force there after listening to his military advisors. Likewise I don't know how many Afghans he got out of the country or how many he would have if he were still President. All we know is what Biden decided and the ongoing consequences of his decision. You are one of the more level-headed posters Babyblob, don't fall into the pattern of deflecting to "what if Trump" or Trump WOULD have.." that's simply unknowable..

Im not deflecting. I am asking a question on how many people Trump helped flee. You beat us over the head about Biden. yes he damn sure should have done more to help those people get out so they did not have to try to cling to the side of a plane as it took off. But if Trump did not help people leave in his time as president after he announced the with draw then yes he is partly responsible for the people who are trapped there now.

As for the may deadline you are right dont know if he would have pulled out by then. Given his history of doubling down on things to not look bad he may very well have. Dont know for sure.

[Spidey5640]

Im not deflecting. I am asking a question on how many people Trump helped flee. You beat us over the head about Biden. yes he damn sure should have done more to help those people get out so they did not have to try to cling to the side of a plane as it took off. But if Trump did not help people leave in his time as president after he announced the with draw then yes he is partly responsible for the people who are trapped there now.

As for the may deadline you are right dont know if he would have pulled out by then. Given his history of doubling down on things to not look bad he may very well have. Dont know for sure.

I said I don't know how many Afghans Trump got out. I honestly don't and obviously neither do you. And neither of us could possibly know how many he would have gotten out before his May deadline because he is no longer President. It's a useless discussion. Biden has been President since January and we do know he didn't bother to get the civilians out before pulling our air force out of Bagram. HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY AND ABILITY TO DO SO. Trump no longer had that power. What is happening is on Biden. 100%.

[babyblob]

I said I don't know how many Afghans Trump got out. I honestly don't and obviously neither do you. And neither of us could possibly know how many he would have gotten out before his May deadline because he is no longer President. It's a useless discussion. Biden has been President since January and we do know he didn't bother to get the civilians out before pulling our air force out of Bagram. HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY AND ABILITY TO DO SO. Trump no longer had that power. What is happening is on Biden. 100%.

We are just going round and round. You blame Biden 100 percent when in truth there is enough blame for every president Since Bush started this mess. Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Congress, the corporations and contractors who money grubbed and profited on this the countries besides America who had a part in this on either side To the Afgans who just sat back and let their country get over run by guys on pick up trucks with machine guns, to the Afgan government who were crooked as hell and pocketed money and fled at the first chance. . All share a bit of the blame. There is very little that happens that is 100 percent on one president. That goes for Biden that goes for Trump that goes for everyone who has ever help the office.

But at this point it is moot. PwrdOn is right. There is too much finger pointing and blame gaming going on and not enough of why/how did we let this happen again and not learn from it again and what can we do to learn from this now.

[green_garnish]

Except we don't. He originally wanted to pull everyone out of Syria but then was persuaded to leave a small force. You simply can't state what he would have done, it's unknowable.

I don't believe I said I know what he would have done. I said we know what would have motivated him to do whatever he would do. That is not really debatable.

[Spidey5640]

We are just going round and round. You blame Biden 100 percent when in truth there is enough blame for every president Since Bush started this mess. Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, Congress, the corporations and contractors who money grubbed and profited on this the countries besides America who had a part in this on either side To the Afgans who just sat back and let their country get over run by guys on pick up trucks with machine guns, to the Afgan government who were crooked as hell and pocketed money and fled at the first chance. . All share a bit of the blame. There is very little that happens that is 100 percent on one president. That goes for Biden that goes for Trump that goes for everyone who has ever help the office.

You're combining issues. We can blame multiple Presidents for staying in Afghanistan...only one- Biden- made the decisions on HOW we would get out.

[babyblob]

You're combining issues. We can blame multiple Presidents for staying in Afghanistan...only one- Biden- made the decisions on HOW we would get out.

The issues have to be combined if we are going to place blame. yes Biden did not handle this well. I have said that. But if people in power in the past 20 years gave a damn and tried, if they would have held Afgan government they put in place at all accountable in the last 20 years. if they would have tried to help the people of Afgan for something more then a 10 minute photo op then maybe and I do say maybe because I dont know for sure but maybe things would not have been the clustermug they have been the last couple weeks. Other then not pulling the people who helped us out I dont see what could have been done different with this with draw. Taliban still would have taken over, the president still would have fled the country, and the army still would have given up in droves. Nothing Biden could have done would have stopped that.

[Spidey5640]

I don't believe I said I know what he would have done. I said we know what would have motivated him to do whatever he would do. That is not really debatable.

Yes it is. You really don't "know" what motivates him unless you're in his head. Additionally you state as fact "that cannot be good". again, you're making a judgement on a decision he never made.

[Spidey5640]

The issues have to be combined if we are going to place blame. yes Biden did not handle this well. I have said that. But if people in power in the past 20 years gave a damn and tried, if they would have held Afgan government they put in place at all accountable in the last 20 years. if they would have tried to help the people of Afgan for something more then a 10 minute photo op then maybe and I do say maybe because I dont know for sure but maybe things would not have been the clustermug they have been the last couple weeks. Other then not pulling the people who helped us out I dont see what could have been done different with this with draw. Taliban still would have taken over, the president still would have fled the country, and the army still would have given up in droves. Nothing Biden could have done would have stopped that.

Respectfully, it is separate issues. No argument there is blame to go around for 20 years of being in Afghanistan...but Biden being President now...he alone had the power to decide how, when and even if we should leave. He botched it. He owns it. All him for that issue.

[green_garnish]

Yes it is. You really don't "know" what motivates him unless you're in his head. Additionally you state as fact "that cannot be good". again, you're making a judgement on a decision he never made.

Trumps head is not exactly a closed book. Whatever decision he would make, it's not good. Every decision he made as president was not bad, it redefined "worst possible"